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SR60-Mod - Page 19  

post #271 of 5003

Hi, could you explain to me how being balanced relates to bi-amping?  They seem unrelated. I thought balanced lines (XLR connectors) were used to reject hum and noise, especially over longer lengths of cables.  Your choice of silver is also interesting.  Mostly I read that it sounds brighter than copper.  Now, I don't find my 325i excessivley bright but many folks here seem to think that, in general, the Grado house sound tends to emphasize high frequencies.  I guess your comparisons have led you in the opposite direction.  Would you clarify for me?  TIA.  

post #272 of 5003

Say Bilavideo, how many holes did you punch into the back of your 325i's to get that more balance presentation you talked about?

 

I might be willing to try punching holes into my 325i's but since I've not seen more detailed pictures or text (may have missed them somewhere) about the process I'm terrified I may damage or punch through the back of the diaphrams. So I'm wondering, just how much distance is there (say in mm) between the black felt-like backing and the diaphram?

 

Like you I also have a drill press, and if it's a short distance wouldn't it be safer to use a drill press to make the holes? If set on slow speed and with the depth guide set so the drill bit ONLY bite's into the fabric/felt do you think this would be a good method for making the holes instead of punching? Don't know if you've still got an extra/dead sr60/80 or whatever lying around but if so would you be willing to be our/my guinea pig to let us know if this approach works?

 

Only issue I can think of offhand is the shavings lodging between the felt/fabric and the diaphrams but I'd think a low vacuum should suck them out...what do ya all think? smily_headphones1.gif 

 

Oh, and what diameter size (again in mm) holes/punches should they be? Thanks, and thanks for the great thread.

post #273 of 5003
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbophead View Post

 Would you clarify for me?  TIA.  


x2

 

That's what I really want to know now. 

post #274 of 5003
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinylCat62 View Post

 

 

Like you I also have a drill press, and if it's a short distance wouldn't it be safer to use a drill press to make the holes? If set on slow speed and with the depth guide set so the drill bit ONLY bite's into the fabric/felt do you think this would be a good method for making the holes instead of punching? 


The sharp tip of the drill bit will snag the felt, then proceed to rip the surrounding felt off of may wrap the felt around the bit tip and spin the whole driver. That is if the material is felt. Either way fabrics and bit's don't play well together.

 

But I do not have driver handy so I can only make an outside observation.

 

 

 

post #275 of 5003

Wait so the only difference in the drivers between the SR60 and the RS1 would be more better quality copper wire used? The housing (and cabling) justifies the huge price increase between the two? That's surprising.

post #276 of 5003
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by apatN View Post

Hold it right there. You cannot create two grounds for headphone cables, rather you use two conductors that are tied to the same ground. There will still be one ground no matter what.


You're right.  There really is only one Ground, which is why a four-connector setup isn't the same thing as balanced.  But just imagine these two scenarios:

 

A.  Three connectors.  You have a dedicated Left and a dedicated Right, with each channel using a common Ground, through the length of the cable.  Imagine the potential for interference.

 

B.  Four connectors.  You start with a common Ground at the terminal, but then you split it into two separate wires: Ground Left and Ground Right.  It isn't bi-amped.  It's not a true independent setup for each channel.  On the other hand, the only point at which the Ground is mixed is at the terminal.  Throughout the cable, separate loops are running.  To be sure, this doesn't change the potential for mischief within the source or amp or within the terminator, but throughout the rest of the line, something else is going on.

 

Is the four-connector setup better than running a three-connector setup?  Yes, I think it is.  Does it sound better?  I think it does.  Can I be sure?  No.  It might well be a placebo.  Still, I'm convinced by my own limited experience that it sounds better, cleaner, maybe even smoother and better defined.  Would I bet my life on it?  No, but I see little harm in building around it.

post #277 of 5003


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post




I was able to do this and I'm not sure what caused this. Here's a few things to try.

 

Cover 4 of those holes with thick felt strips (if they're not already open it's ok). Two on each side. Maybe 1 on each side is worth trying first.

 

Remove the button or grill/grating. I was trying to take off the logo and ended up ruining it by it leaving a circle there. Seems fine though, but i'll replace this later.

 

Now the highs are never fatiguing and I can listen to them for hours.

 

I used a lot of felt around the edge in a circle. It's thicker then what most people used and I found it at wal-mart. It's called "Felt Strips" and I cut about 20% off each one. I don't think this is what toned down the highs. Don't think the felt button did either.

 

BTW I have 6 holes open. 4 covered. I had 10, but it added too much mid-bass for me. Not sure why I tried to cover the 4 with thick felt. Was going to use tape, but now i'm glad I didn't!

 

I'm might go down to a few less holes, but i'm not sure now. For those i'll use thin masking tape. I sure wish I didn't start with 10 holes! Big mistake for me.

 

Right now the bass is just incredible. Night and day difference. I love it. Previously I was complaining they don't have enough bass! I can't get over how it feels like I now have a $300 headphone.


 

 I woodied the cups, and replaced the grille with a thin metal one, but there's still 2 prominent spikes around 2.5khz and 9-10khz.

post #278 of 5003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post




The sharp tip of the drill bit will snag the felt, then proceed to rip the surrounding felt off of may wrap the felt around the bit tip and spin the whole driver. That is if the material is felt. Either way fabrics and bit's don't play well together.

 

But I do not have driver handy so I can only make an outside observation.

 

 

 


You might be right Majestic about the snagging on a drill bit, that's why I thought a slow speed would be best and might work ok. But your nightmarish vision (sheeesh!...don't invite me to one of your dreams smily_headphones1.gif) has scared me out of trying a drill bit (unless some other brave soul tries and confirms it works ok).

 

But instead of a drill bit I could slap in the drill press a dremel type pointed grinding stone, that shouldn't snag...just need to know more specifics about 325 hole diameter, number of holes, and distance between driver covering and diaphram. Thanks.

post #279 of 5003
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by bbophead View Post

Hi, could you explain to me how being balanced relates to bi-amping?  They seem unrelated. I thought balanced lines (XLR connectors) were used to reject hum and noise, especially over longer lengths of cables.  Your choice of silver is also interesting.  Mostly I read that it sounds brighter than copper.  Now, I don't find my 325i excessivley bright but many folks here seem to think that, in general, the Grado house sound tends to emphasize high frequencies.  I guess your comparisons have led you in the opposite direction.  Would you clarify for me?  TIA.  


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but balanced amplification involves no common Ground.  The left and right channels are independently amped.  This prevents each channel from being tainted by interference from the other.  The problem with using a common Ground is that neither channel has a completely neutral secondary wire.  By using the same Ground, each channel is employing a medium that is already conducting current for the other channel.  It's a workable solution but not the ideal one.

 

Silver doesn't sound brighter than copper.  That's a myth.  Silver conducts better.  Whatever benefits derive from slightly better conductivity (about 7%) translate into an audible difference, even over five feet of wire.  Is it twice as good?  No.  Is it 7% better.  I don't know.  What's 7%?  What I do know is that it reduces the impedance of the line and allows my headphones to perform better, particularly when working from an unamped iPod.  I get better bass and better clarity in the HF.  How can it do both?  Well, it's not because silver is "brighter."  It's because a better connection allows the drivers to perform better, especially when being run off the feeble current of a portable device.  Do I really need better wiring if I have God's gift to amplifiers?  Probably not.  But running off an iPod or other portable device, silver performs surprisingly well - at least for its diameter.  Using 24 awg of 99.99% pure silver wire, I'm thrilled at the improvement.  I like the sound better than with the "garden hose" big, copper, wire.  I also like the fact that it's more svelt - thinner and lighter than copper lamp cable.

 

I'm not knocking copper.  Given enough copper, you can get plenty of conductivity - especially over a short cable and employing a decent amp.  But given a choice between a thick copper cable and a thin silver cable, I'm pretty happy with silver.
 

Originally Posted by VinylCat62 View Post

Say Bilavideo, how many holes did you punch into the back of your 325i's to get that more balance presentation you talked about?

 

I might be willing to try punching holes into my 325i's but since I've not seen more detailed pictures or text (may have missed them somewhere) about the process I'm terrified I may damage or punch through the back of the diaphrams. So I'm wondering, just how much distance is there (say in mm) between the black felt-like backing and the diaphram?

 

Like you I also have a drill press, and if it's a short distance wouldn't it be safer to use a drill press to make the holes? If set on slow speed and with the depth guide set so the drill bit ONLY bite's into the fabric/felt do you think this would be a good method for making the holes instead of punching? Don't know if you've still got an extra/dead sr60/80 or whatever lying around but if so would you be willing to be our/my guinea pig to let us know if this approach works?

 

Only issue I can think of offhand is the shavings lodging between the felt/fabric and the diaphrams but I'd think a low vacuum should suck them out...what do ya all think? smily_headphones1.gif

 

Oh, and what diameter size (again in mm) holes/punches should they be? Thanks, and thanks for the great thread.


Every time I do this stuff, I keep telling myself I'm going to limit myself to four holes, which is what Grado does.  Every time, I find it impossible to stop at four.  Instead, I vent all ten holes.  It looks like I've stumbled onto an addiction.  When and where shall we meet?  If I don't drink the coffee can I still have a doughnut?  Will I find Edward Norton and Helena Bonham Carter there?

 

When you ask about the distance between the felt of the driver back and the diaphragm itself, keep in mind that the diaphragm forms a kind of semicircle, arcing over the front of the driver.  This means, among other things, that the diaphragm's distance varies, with the greatest distance toward the center and the least distance near the outer radius of the driver.  On the other hand, the all ten holes are found at the same outer radius from the center.  But within each hole, there's a side the leans toward the center and a side that leans toward the edge.  In terms of venting the driver without unwittingly venting the diaphragm, it helps to have an instrument that won't penetrate too deeply.  I've found a ball-point pen to be the easiest and most ideal.

 

I dont' think it would be any safer to use a drill press for this work.  First, I don't think venting the felt is difficult enough to merit a drill of any kind.  Second, I don't think a drill bit - even one on a low setting - is a good idea for penetrating the hole.  There's nothing to stop the drill from pushing through to the diaphragm.  A ball-point pen can only be pushed in to a certain degree.  I find it safer and easier.

 

As for the shavings, I've gotten used to blowing through the holes while closing and/or covering my eyes.  There's a certain amount of dust and micro-debris that settles upon the driver.  Blowing through the hole helps dislodge this debris.  Otherwise, you'll hear a buzz on certain tracks.  On the other hand, if you blow, you need to close your eyes.  Otherwise, you'll get some of this stuff in your eye.

 

I've actually thought of replacing the driver back with wood and/or of replacing the magnet and magnet plate with a ring magnet.  At the moment, I'm not up to the task, but I hope to be in the not-too-distant future.
 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

Wait so the only difference in the drivers between the SR60 and the RS1 would be more better quality copper wire used? The housing (and cabling) justifies the huge price increase between the two? That's surprising.


I'm reluctant to make that statement.  I honestly don't think the difference between UHPLC copper and standard copper is that great, especially on a voicecoil or over a few feet of cable.  That said, the differences between an out-of-the-box RS1 and an out-of-the-box SR60 are large enough to merit a price difference.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I just think the idea of an unbridgeable gulf between the SR60 and the RS1 is a lie.  When you buy the RS1, you're paying to have the hard work done for you - wooden air chambers, driver damping, driver venting, better cabling, maybe a different grill cloth, et cetera.

 

There's no reason to knock the RS1.  I'm in the lifting business, not the wrecking-ball business.  The RS1 represents a gold standard, not a rip-off.  Instead, my gospel is that the SR60 is a diamond in the rough, one that could be brought up to RS1 standards - with enough blood, sweat and tears.

post #280 of 5003

Thanks Bilavideo for your comments and clarification. I think I try just 4 holes. About drill press depth and risking damage to the back of the diaphram...My drill press has a depth limiter (I assume your does too). With it you can set the bit to only travel whatever distance into the material you'd like (1mm, 2mm, whatever) and then STOP. It doesn't go deeper into the material and wouldn't damage the diaphram if set properly ahead of time. I'd feel better at ease with such a controlable method than the less controlable pushing a pen through method. However, if i choose to not use a drill press (better with a pointed grinding stone I would think) it would help to know the diameter of your holes? And I assume you mean one of those "Bic" disposable pens? And how easy or hard is it to push through (again I don't want to push so hard I damage the diaphram). With this info I could get a better sense of the tolerances and risks. Thanks a bunch for all your help.

post #281 of 5003
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by VinylCat62 View Post

Thanks Bilavideo for your comments and clarification. I think I try just 4 holes. About drill press depth and risking damage to the back of the diaphram...My drill press has a depth limiter (I assume your does too). With it you can set the bit to only travel whatever distance into the material you'd like (1mm, 2mm, whatever) and then STOP. It doesn't go deeper into the material and wouldn't damage the diaphram if set properly ahead of time. I'd feel better at ease with such a controlable method than the less controlable pushing a pen through method. However, if i choose to not use a drill press (better with a pointed grinding stone I would think) it would help to know the diameter of your holes? And I assume you mean one of those "Bic" disposable pens? And how easy or hard is it to push through (again I don't want to push so hard I damage the diaphram). With this info I could get a better sense of the tolerances and risks. Thanks a bunch for all your help.


Far be it for me to dissuade you from pursuing your bliss, but taking a drill press to these holes is a bit like killing a fly with a howitzer.  Popping a vent is as easy as popping a pimple, and a tad less painful.  It doesn't take precise measurements, just a little pressure.  Having used other implements, including jeweler's screwdrivers and steak knives, I wholeheartedly endorse the ballpoint method.  In fact, if you pop your diaphragms, contact me and I'll negotiate the purchase of your headphones - provided you not kill a PS1 or an HP1000.  You're not going to pop your diaphragms with a Bic.  I can't guarantee the same results if you run your drill through the holes, now matter how careful you are.  Sometimes in life, you just have to lick the stamp and move on.  I'm not trying to be flippant.  When you venture the effort, you'll see why.  This is such an easy mod, it really doesn't merit much of a pause.  Just go easy on the venting.  Take it two at a time and stop when you get enough.  Not everybody wants the full monty, but nobody I know of ever blew their diaphragms using a ballpoint pen.

post #282 of 5003

Don't be fooled by the limit that the drill press can be pressed down. The danger does not lie with the drill press but what actually happens upon penetration. If the part is not viced hard enough or held tight enough by hand (not  recommended ) then the driver can be drawn upward since the spiral of the drill bit is meant to quickly move material up and out. 

 

With the ball point pen you can manage the pressure slowly and with controlled small circular motion ( wear ) out the felt until it breaches. The wide taper of the tip of the pen I assume will keep you from driving through the felt quickly unlike the straight shaft of a drill bit. Makes sense in what Bill is stating. I know it's tempting to use a sharp object for quick penetration but that could lead to accidental damage to the driver. 

 

Sorry for the grim advise but I think the tried and used method should be a safe one.


Edited by Majestic - 10/1/10 at 9:54pm
post #283 of 5003

How do you know where exactly to poke through the felt? Just any four random holes? Spaced out over at a 12-3-6-9 'o clock position? And @bila if what you said was true, then I'm very expecant to hear how my modded SR60s turn out and I'll see how close I can get it to the RS1 (:

post #284 of 5003
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

How do you know where exactly to poke through the felt? Just any four random holes? Spaced out over at a 12-3-6-9 'o clock position? And @bila if what you said was true, then I'm very expecant to hear how my modded SR60s turn out and I'll see how close I can get it to the RS1 (:


Felt backed by plastic is hard.  Felt covering a driver hole is easy to push through.  These holes are situated in a predictable pattern, so you can easily find your way around the dial.  If you want to use the same pattern as the PS1000, hold the headphones up to a light source.  Using the holes in the magnet back as a reference, when those holes are set horizontally in a 9-and-3 position, the four driver holes on the PS1000 are set at 9, 3, 7, and 5.

 

Enjoy!

post #285 of 5003

I'm negotiating a purchase of sr60's. Hopefully I can swing it.

 

  With that said, when I attempt to sweat the glue off cups with steam does any of the steam collect behind the driver diaphram? And if it does, I assume it dries without residue. Correct? 

Thanks for sharing this post with us for Q&A's. I can say that after reading your thorough data and viewing the great pic's it has pushed me to try the Grado's. 

 

Thanks


Edited by Majestic - 10/1/10 at 11:44pm
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