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DT880 600ohm BS - Page 5  

post #61 of 352
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HariBhushan View Post
 You really can't trust anyone's ears except yourself.

 

And even then, you really can't without precautions!  Just be sure to perform your ABX tests blind and level matched (to within 0.1db).

 


I know my headphones sound different ALL the time depending on my mood, my level of sobriety, the volume level, and the source material itself.  Some days I think my DT880 is excessively bright, sometimes  I don't. 

post #62 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by HariBhushan View Post I honestly think that 600 ohm is bs,  it's probably meant to be used with high end studio equipment or something. I bet beyer are probably laughing their assess off on this one.


I've never seen any official statement from Beyer about there being any sonic differences between the 32/250/600 ohm versions of their headphones.  You are probably correct that the difference impedances were originally conceived just as a way to target different markets (e.g. portable, home, studio).  I also originally thought the 600 ohm version was for studio use, but I now strongly suspect it was created for the "audiophile" market and tube amps users.

 

Beyer has also never explicitly stated that the 600 ohm version is audibly faster than the lower impedance versions.  They've only put forth some generic statement about how higher impedance drivers can have a lighter driver and thus can be faster.

 

Beyond all that, you can increase impedance make lengthening the amount of wire used in the voice coil, but that would increase the mass of the driver...which means it would be slower...but you can also use thinner wire so it will be lighter...or you can make the driver material lighter...Only Beyer knows how Beyer did it.

 

My own experiments (quite a lot of them) with different versions of the DT880 let me to conclude the reported audible differences are easier explained by the reality that it's very difficult to match volumes when two headphones have such different impedances.  I've concluded the 600 ohm version sounds exactly the same or just minimally different from the 250 ohm version - spiky treble and all!


Edited by odigg - 8/17/10 at 8:33am
post #63 of 352

I've directly compared the DT880/250ohm and the DT880/600ohm at two different meets, and both times I preferred the 250.  I felt that it had better presence and soundstage.  So IMO the 600 ohm impedence is not an inherent advantage.

post #64 of 352

i believe maverickronin touched on this, but i think it still needs some clarification.

 

if newton's second law states F=MA

to solve for acceleration, then, A = F/M

 

acceleration is equal to the force divided by the mass.

 

when we decrease the mass (driver), and still apply the same force (magnet), then the acceleration increases.

 

scientifically, there's no way it doesn't get faster.

 

science has spoken.

now, whether the headphones sound better, that's only for your ears to decide.

 

post #65 of 352
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWuss View Post

when we decrease the mass (driver), and still apply the same force (magnet), then the acceleration increases.

 

One way to increase the impedance of a driver is to increase the length of the wire on the voicecoil. Thus the mass of the driver actually increases.  So then the acceleration decreases, thus the driver is slower.

 

But there is more to driver design than just increasing the wire length.  As I said in a previous post, only the Beyer engineers know how they did it.

post #66 of 352

Who says that the mass of the voicecoils will decrease with smaller gauge wiring?  Smaller gauge wire packs more tightly when wound, versus large gauge (ie, fewer gaps and more metal), so you may actually have increased the moving mass.  I'm not saying this is the case, as I don't have a technical spec or physical example in front of me. I guess it depends on whether Beyer winds a constant number of turns, or packs a constant amount of mass in the 32 ohm vs. 250 ohm vs. 600 ohm drivers.  But as is usually the case when applying an undisputable scientific equation , it is the assumptions that cause problems, not the application of mathematics.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWuss View Post

i believe maverickronin touched on this, but i think it still needs some clarification.

 

if newton's second law states F=MA

to solve for acceleration, then, A = F/M

 

acceleration is equal to the force divided by the mass.

 

when we decrease the mass (driver), and still apply the same force (magnet), then the acceleration increases.

 

scientifically, there's no way it doesn't get faster.

 

science has spoken.

now, whether the headphones sound better, that's only for your ears to decide.

 

post #67 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega View Post

Who says that the mass of the voicecoils will decrease with smaller gauge wiring?  Smaller gauge wire packs more tightly when wound, versus large gauge (ie, fewer gaps and more metal), so you may actually have increased the moving mass.  I'm not saying this is the case, as I don't have a technical spec or physical example in front of me. I guess it depends on whether Beyer winds a constant number of turns, or packs a constant amount of mass in the 32 ohm vs. 250 ohm vs. 600 ohm drivers.  But as is usually the case when applying an undisputable scientific equation , it is the assumptions that cause problems, not the application of mathematics.



the magnetic field is a result of the number of turns.  which will be the same in a particular driver design.

the only variable is the wire thickness.

 

http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/headphones-headsets/faqs.html

 

you assume i assumed. 

post #68 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWuss View Post

i believe maverickronin touched on this, but i think it still needs some clarification.

 

if newton's second law states F=MA

to solve for acceleration, then, A = F/M

 

acceleration is equal to the force divided by the mass.

 

when we decrease the mass (driver), and still apply the same force (magnet), then the acceleration increases.

 

scientifically, there's no way it doesn't get faster.

 

science has spoken.

now, whether the headphones sound better, that's only for your ears to decide.

 


Thanks for clarifying my point.

post #69 of 352
Thread Starter 

I remember having this conversation about "speed" countless other times.

 

If a driver goes from rest, to a maximum amplitude (hill peak), then all the way back to the opposite amplitude (valley peak) and does this 20,000 times in 1 second, we have a 20,000hz signal, and many headphones can produce it without being attenuated (decreased amplitude / decreased excursion). If there were any "lag" time for the driver to increase it's accelearation enough to complete 20,000hz cycles in that same time interval (1 second), then you would either have fewer cycles completed (distortion of the original input signal), or an attenuated signal from a reduced excursion (attenuated high frequency signal). All of these variables are represented in distortion figures (usually less than 0.2% in most headphones and below audibility), or as a function of frequency response.

 

I'm not sure how much "faster" you need to be. Aside from things like ringing, if a driver hits a 20,000hz signal without distortion and without attenuation it should be fast, because it would have to be to output such a signal.

 

Therefore, I conclude that good driver speed is a determinant of high frequency response, and low distortion. Any subjective sense of "speed" is due to particular colourations in the frequency response that give the sound "snap" such as boosted upper midrange frequencies.

post #70 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post

Therefore, I conclude that good driver speed is a determinant of high frequency response, and low distortion. Any subjective sense of "speed" is due to particular colourations in the frequency response that give the sound "snap" such as boosted upper midrange frequencies.


A fantastic post (I have only quoted a portion). Thankyou very much sir.

post #71 of 352

Look at post number 67, click on the questions to receive the answers.  A week's worth of arguing, and Beyer had the answer just lying there from the start.  Remember, in all cases, the human brain perceives an increase in volume to be an increase in sound quality.  Overall, higher impedance phones naturally will be less bass-heavy and play at a softer volume.  These two account for any perceived differences/similarities in quality.  Even if you level-match the headphones to the same dB level, the lower phones will have increased bass, which will likely distort your hearing test.

 

Studio headphones are all 600 Ohm because that is the way that studios are designed: professional-grade gear is meant to have multiple headphones plugged in at the same time, in parallel.  The number that was arbitrarily (as far as I know, anyway) agreed upon to be 600 Ohm, so that everyone gets overall the same volume.  It isn't some magical number where headphone drivers are made from unicorn horns and pegasus wings, giving you meaningfulness that you didn't know existed.  There isn't a conspiracy.  If you want 32 Ohm Beyers, then get them as they sound amazing.  As I've said in previous posts, a friend got the 32 Ohm Beyer DT880 once he came and sampled his Sony "DJ" headphones against my 55 Ohm AKG K240's, and we were both happy with the sound.  Beyer isn't Bose; I don't think they'd charge $200 if it wasn't justified.  I've used those DT880 and some pilot headset, and they are a solid company that backs their products with knowledge and development, to make them perform admirably.  I'm sure the 250 Ohm sound just as they claim: more natural sounding with less bass.

post #72 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by shnitz View Post

Look at post number 67, click on the questions to receive the answers.


Parts of their answers are not right or stupid generalizations.

post #73 of 352

As many have already posted, we all hear differently.  Physical measurements of headphones are fun and might give you some pre-purchase guidance, but actually hearing/auditioning for some time with your own music (if you are buying headphones for yourself) is obviously better, especially if you can do this in your own comfortable setting.

 

Since so many retailers have excellent return policies, and since there is a strong used market, this is a viable strategy.  Yes, auditioning will cost you money (shipping, or the loss on the buy-then-FS transaction), but you should correctly count that as part of the price paid for the HPs you keep.

 

I am a well-regarded statistician and understand the scientific method as well as anyone, so let's not go there in response.

 

I own beyer 880/600s (MANUFAKTUR from the German site).  I purchased a QESLabs HPBA balanced heaphone amp speficially designed for these phones -- it is solid state -- and had the 880/600 re-cabled for balanced operation by Headphile.

 

I own beyer 880/250s.  These came with a single-ended SS amp directly from beyer specifically designed for these phones.  (The amp also has DSP functions, but I turned those off).

 

My Wadia CDP has both balanced and s.e. analog output from SACDs active, so I am able to drive both amps simultaneously, and level match with no problem.

 

With some long audio cables from BlueJeans, I am able to sit comfortably in a desk chair and have access to both phones -- level matched, as I said.

 

I put on an SACD that I know well, and close my eyes. My wife switches the headphones for me when I tell her too.  The clamping force is identical (no, I haven't measured the newtons, but I can't feel a difference).  The pads are identical.  I repeat with other SACDs.  Clapton, Joplin (Janis, not Scott), The Who (Tommy).

 

I (strongly) prefer the 600 ohm setup.  My blind A/B score was 25 out of 27.  (If I was paying attention, instead of enjoying the tactile experience of the wife/hair combo thing, and extrapolating where that vector would lead, eyes closed really amplifying that too, the score would have been 27/27).

 

Could be the amp, who knows.  But each amp was designed for the HP it was driving, so I am testing the whole package.  The amps cost about the same, and one was made by beyer itself.

 

When I return to my normal wiring set-up, the 880/600s are right at hand, as is my Orpheus.  Both are on all the time when music is playing (the Orpehus is s.e.).  On anything pop (except solo femal vocalists) and rock, I tend to pick up the 880s -- that says a lot.  For symphonies, classical violin and piano, female torch and slit-your-wrist genres, and opera, it's the Orph for sure.  For classic album rock, rap, and dance pop -- as well as the re-mastered Paul Simon collection and the Beatles mono box -- it's the 880s (for most large live rock concerts, a genre I like a lot, if I can motivate myself to get off the sofa and cross the room, I still prefer the Beta 22 and the AD2K's).

 

So for me, IMHO, the 880/600s deserve all the praise they get.  There is no BS here and the thread title is a tad offensive.  The 880/600s are an important product in this space, and the MANUFAKTUR site is neat and adds to the pleasure of purchase.  I usually recommend this route to new audiophiles just getting in to HPs.  (First I recommend used Stax, but that doesn't often curry favor ... however eveyone loves the MANUFAKTUR experience).

 

880/600 BS?  Yea, Better Sound.

 

Some of the posters here live near me and come for listening sessions -- I think I will try to repeat this single-blind experiment.  But they have to supply their own headphone-changing-girls, sorry.


Edited by wavoman - 8/20/10 at 4:25am
post #74 of 352
Thread Starter 

Hmmm....that's so over-generalized / wrong I don't know where to begin.

 

So a 300ohm Sennheiser HD650 is less bassy than a 32ohm AD700? Me no think so.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shnitz View Post

 Remember, in all cases, the human brain perceives an increase in volume to be an increase in sound quality.  Overall, higher impedance phones naturally will be less bass-heavy and play at a softer volume.  These two account for any perceived differences/similarities in quality.  Even if you level-match the headphones to the same dB level, the lower phones will have increased bass, which will likely distort your hearing test.

 

post #75 of 352
Thread Starter 

Comments in bold.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavoman View Post

As many have already posted, we all hear differently.  Physical measurements of headphones are fun and might give you some pre-purchase guidance, but actually hearing/auditioning for some time with your own music (if you are buying headphones for yourself) is obviously better, especially if you can do this in your own comfortable setting.

 

You're right -we do all hear differently.  The problem is that two headphones that measure identically, or inaudibly different will sound no different to the same person.

 

I (strongly) prefer the 600 ohm setup.  My blind A/B score was 25 out of 27.  (If I was paying attention, instead of enjoying the tactile experience of the wife/hair combo thing, and extrapolating where that vector would lead, eyes closed really amplifying that too, the score would have been 27/27).

 

Did you take the time to volume match your 2 headphones to within 0.1db?  Using a 0ohm impedance amp "may" also prevent slight colourations though highly unlikely.


 

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