Audio-gd Reference 7 Loaner Program (USA) - Page 12

Originally Posted by tisb0b 

I just find it to be very weak justification that because Kingwa claimed there was a 'significant improvement' then it must be true.

...and I would in most cases agree.

It is just that with KW that, when he upgrades his gear or create new products that supersedes his older gear, he almost always states his famous "slight improve" and tries to describe what and how was slightly improved. It was so when I've asked him about RE-1 vs. RE-7 differences, which I find not so slight in RE-7's favour.

Therefore, having my "slight improve" experiences, when he claimed DSP-1 V4 and later V5 was "significant improvement" over older versions I instantly knew believed that DSP firmware upgrade was a must have.

Do I have to add that he was right?

Do you expect Kingwa who I don't think is super proficient in English judging from his emails and his website or maybe you could ask him what a slight improvement in sound is in chinese to give you the detailed descriptions head-fier reviewers do here? I think you should also understand he seems to be always experimenting with digital components that work in audio gears and he only uses what he is familiar with so he may not have the latest and greatest access to some better DSP chips or lowest jitter reclocker and be familiar with all its technical aspects, and how to integrate it into his electronic designs. I think that could be a good thing because then people could give him a heads up about what is the latest and greatest in the audio gear world and he could come up with his own design or put in these modifications for you in his audio gear. Some people pay thousands more just for a slight improvement in sound and I'm sure he doesn't just price his audio gear solely on sound but the price of the parts as well. The only audio-gd product I own so far is the audio-gd c2c and I like how it sounds even though it is my first headphone amp and I was glad to have read excellent reviews on it here in head-fi before deciding to give it a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tisb0b 

I just find it to be very weak justification that because Kingwa claimed there was a 'significant improvement' then it must be true. Aren't all of us here a much more cynical bunch? Ultimately Kingwa is out to make money by selling his products if he wasn't then audio-gd would not exist. The fact that there are no ads just indicates that word of mouth advertising is garnering him enough business.

 

 

The ironic thing is PJ is posting that Kingwa claims a 'significant improvement' on V5. This is a free upgrade on V4 and costs a whopping $30 if your DSP is older.

People, feel free to use the 'beating a dead horse' character at your discretion.

Haha, thanks for the informed response
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten 

 

He is very cognizant that word of mouth is where his bread is buttered.  There is a lot of Snake-Oil in this business, but he ain't one of them.  You are of course entitled to your own skepticism, and it's a healthy thing, but if you read the A-GD threads, you'll learn that "this is no Humbug!"

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by lmswjm 

The ironic thing is PJ is posting that Kingwa claims a 'significant improvement' on V5. This is a free upgrade on V4 and costs a whopping $30 if your DSP is older.

 

People, feel free to use the 'beating a dead horse' character at your discretion.

This is true.  And for most people this would be just fine.  (I plan on upgrading the module that came with my Ref-7 this way to have as a backup.)  But if you're like me and want the latest software and hardware implementation and don't want to be without the use of your DAC for a few weeks, you will have to pony up $180 which includes shipping and PayPal fees for the newest v5 module which uses gold-plated jumpers instead of the inferior DIP switches.  There may or may not be other hardware changes as well, you'd have to ask Kingwa.  (As I understand it, the Altera Cyclone II chip and the third-party programming is quite expensive and his profits on this new board are close to nothing).

And for the record, Kingwa tried to talk me out of spending my money to do this and have me ship in my old DSP-1 instead, several times I might add.  This is how much of a "salesman" he is.    But I insisted on having the newest one.  (He is the only manufacturer I've ever dealt with in this business that actually will try to talk you out of spending your money unless you're absolutely sure.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes 

The REF 7 is the best sub $2000 (Retail) DAC that I've heard. That being said IMHO the PWD is worth the extra $ for its performance (Small but noticeable) improvement alone. Throw in the much richer feature set and I think the PWD is well worth the price premium.

 

If your budget is $2000 and you want to buy new I Strongly recommend the REF 7. It's a bargain, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you are getting a DAC that matches the very best price no object DAC's (EMM, Esoteric (Some not all), DCS (taste dependent), Zanden, etc. My PWD is at least a step below such world class DAC's and at least to my ears the REF 7 is a small step behind it.

 

YMMV

One wrench to throw in here is that there's usually a fairly steady supply of PWDs on Audiogon in the $1800 - 2000 range, and PS is also offering their trade in deal again.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong 

Personally, I can't help wondering what the result would be if a Ref 7 were built in the manner of some of Pricklely Peete's mods to his Reference 1, where he upgraded most of the capacitors.

Indeed. I assume the HE version is otherwise the same parts wise except for the power supply? It seems like there's room pricing wise above the $1600-1800 range for truly TOTL parts - caps, better RCA and XLR sockets, and wiring. 

With all the coverage A gd gets from members of this site, they should become a sponsor. The site is used to market their product so it seems fair to help the site financially.

How much does sponsorship usually cost per month?

Sounds to me like he is an excellent salesman that knows his market very well. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ 

 

And for the record, Kingwa tried to talk me out of spending my money to do this and have me ship in my old DSP-1 instead, several times I might add.  This is how much of a "salesman" he is.    But I insisted on having the newest one.  (He is the only manufacturer I've ever dealt with in this business that actually will try to talk you out of spending your money unless you're absolutely sure.)

Well someone had to do it:

What are you?  A Stock Holder?

You mean like Sony,Beyer, Stax, A-T, Grado, etc, etc

Everybody's gear who gets reviews here has to be a sponsor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper 

With all the coverage A gd gets from members of this site, they should become a sponsor. The site is used to market their product so it seems fair to help the site financially.

While interesting...

Not really fair comparing new retail to used market price.

It seems that a $1000 Used REF1 would be more the comparison.

I haven't seen any used REF 7's yet, don't know what they would go for.

I get your point though.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBSC 

 

One wrench to throw in here is that there's usually a fairly steady supply of PWDs on Audiogon in the $1800 - 2000 range, and PS is also offering their trade in deal again.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten 

While interesting...

 

Not really fair comparing new retail to used market price.

 

I'm just saying that for someone who might prefer the PWD, but can't afford to drop $3K, they don't necessarily have to settle. The PWD's retail price can also buy you a Theta or Levinson DAC, although I'm not sure they are worth the $3500 or so that they tend to sell for. Money is money, I don't really make a distinction between new and used. 

I am most impressed by audio-gd acss sound signature when watching movies, maybe because neutrality is more important than musicality for movies. Curious to hear other people's opinion on it.