What's the difference between a $300 amp and a $1200 one???? - Page 4

jax: Actually, in terms of digital audio, there have been huge steps forward, it's the analog parts that seem to have been taking steps back inside the DACs.  People want small and affordable, industry follows... which leads to good DACs with small, cheap power supplies and simple opamp buffers compared to huge DAC units with multiple regulated power supplies running off multiple transformers with large discrete output stages.

 

AVU: If you disagree with any statement, which part do you think is incorrect, just leaving an opinion means nothing and isn't all that productive.  Please also state what equipment you base your opinion on.

I think it's most constructive to establish the differences in people's expectations and their norms, because these are very different from one person to the next.  One person might expect an amp to be as accurate as possible, and the other as musical as possible, most people I wager are somewhere in between - these are not the same expectations and one is not more correct than the other. This is why a DAC like Benchmark is awesome for some but not others.

 

In this context I feel that modern electronics has made *great* improvements over previous generation products, not because it does any one thing better, but that consumers have ever so many choices to find exactly what they want to fit their different expectations.

 

Back in the day, if you didn't care for the tube sound, you were out of luck. Modern electronics affords you not only the choice of "steril" solid state versus "luscious" tube, but all shades in between. You can now have a "solid state sounding tube amp", or a "warm sounding solid state amp". To someone whose audio enjoyment is most ably fulfilled by a 90's era Rotel, then no other piece of equipment is going to bring about greater satisfaction. Now, in case that 90's era Rotel was only deliver 95% of maximum enjoyment, then the variety of modern electronics greatly increases the chance that the listener will find something that gets closer to 100%. 

 

I guess my answer to the $300-vs-$1000 question is, you get out of it whatever your ears tell you. If $300 bought you the best amp to your ears, even a $100,000 amp isn't going to rock your world any harder.  If you do find a $1000 amp that sounds better to you than a $300 amp, that's just how the dice rolled and you need to decide whether you want to part with the extra $700.

 

Jack

 

 

Ahhh, well you see now there I'd agree with you, only in that the power supplies and analog output stage on a DAC can make a profound difference on the way it sounds.  You can see that without qualifying your original statement with this detail, on face value it seems to entirely contradict itself, can't you? At the very least it is quite confusing.  Now it becomes an interesting point.  I'd have to really think about that one.  The DAC's I favored ten years ago were Muse (NOS DAC by Kevin Halverson who is partly behind the current Streamer - a trend that certainly follows what you are suggesting though the Streamer is deliberately built to be affordable and portable and can hardly be compared to his larger DACs).  I actually went from a Model 2 Plus (NOS) to one of his efforts at an oversampling DAC and didn't particularly like the change.  I sold the oversampling version (I can't recall the model) and kept the Model 2 Plus (which I thought was a wonderful DAC at the time).  I wonder how it would occur to me now.  The DAC I listen to the most and most critically is the Modwright Transporter (in my main system) which has major modifications to both power supply and output stage.  It's the best I've heard in my own system and does everything I'd like it to.  I've not had any yearning to switch or compare since putting that front end in my system.  I don't know if what you are suggesting is a 'rule' or just one particular trend in DAC design.  Certainly some manufacturers do suggest the importance of power supply and output stage (PS Audio would be one of note).  I'm thinking of the best stuff I've heard of late, and I'm actually not sure how they do what they do, and simply have not compared them head to head to DACs from years past.

 

PS Thanks for clarifying that.

This reminds me of the point of diminishing returns.  I can speak with far more experience and authority in the speaker side of the coin than in this world.  Perhaps someone else can fill in the blanks as far as headphone systems go.  With speaker systems I've found that there is a certain point where your investment no longer brings the same significant leaps and bounds it had the potential to at lower levels.  At some point you have to start throwing larger and larger sums of coin at improvements for smaller and smaller gains.  This stage may come at entirely different points according to the individual and their expectations.  It also seems to vary from component to component within the chain.  As an example I think, for my own ears, there are significant gains to be had going from a $400 DAC to a $1500-2000 DAC.  The jump then from a $2000 DAC to a $5K DAC, though there is an improvement that improvement simply is not worth the extra $3K to me.  I can happily live with the lesser.  With speakers, and I'm really generalizing here, there is a big jump between $400-12000 speakers to $3000-7000 speakers.  Go beyond that and you really need to start adding lots of money for what may be smaller increments of improvement. Whether or not it is worth it is entirely up to you.  My experience with headphone amps has been sonically what I described in a previous post.  I haven't ventured beyond the amp in my sig file simply because I've been very happy with it and the few things I have heard that are more expensive would not warrant the price jump for me personally.  I do think the difference between $300 level and $1000 level amps that I've had does warrant the price jump.  In that case the example I could think of is the difference between a Cyber-22, which I think I paid in the sub $300 range, and a Berning Micro-ZOTL, which was only around $700 used and was well worth the added investment to my ears.  I buy used most of the time by the way.  Again, generalizing.  No rule book here.  Just my own personal take on it.

@FallenAngel - Sorry, my original post got cut off.  There was actually a long discussion after that, and I'm not going to go through it all again.  But basically not dissimilar to Jax's original criticism: the DACs have either made progress or they haven't, and it's completely contradictory to claim that they both are and aren't a better value against newer dacs of the same price.  

But since you clarified the digital vs analog parts, that makes a bit more sense.  A bit.  But let's cut the hypothetical mumbo jumbo and get some specific examples on the table:

 

Audio-Gd Reference 5 DSP = $1040 new

 

Electrocompaniet ECD1 = $1000 used 

 

Musical Fidelity TriVista 21 = $1000 used

 

Wired 4 Sound DAC1 = $1000 new

 

Eastern Electric Tube Dac = $750 new

 

And maybe something ancient like the

 

Theta DS Pro Prime, which used to be a fortune, but now can be had for a couple hundred dollars.

 

Your logic would suggest that some are a _MUCH_ better deal that others.  I'd like to know which of these are the best deal for that $1000.

 

 

 

Edited by AVU - 8/10/10 at 9:58pm

I've heard only a couple of those actually.

 

Audio-GD Ref 5 - this uses PCM1704 DACs... that were developed in 2000!  Can't say that digital has "made progress" by that DAC chip choice. :p  Haven't heard it, but I've heard another PCM1704-based DAC and enjoyed it quite a bit.

ECD1 - 2003 and having heard this one, I have to say it's a little too much on the "overly done warm side" for my taste, though I have no doubt there are lots of people who like this DAC.

TriVista21 - never heard of it

W4S DAC1 - never heard it myself, though the ESS9018 DAC is quite the head-turner in terms of absolutely awesome specs, I've owned a few TwistedPearAudio Buffalo DAC iterations and enjoy them.

EE Tube Dac - never heard of it

Theta DS Pro Prime - again, never it myself

 

At $1000 personally, I'd go for a NorthStar m192 MK1  :)

AVU, digital seems to turn over every two or three years. New chips and designs bring down the cost just as often. However, amplification moves at a much slower pace. New designs seem to be incremental improvements, if any. Even then, the cost of a quality power supply seems to remain about the same. You can get older amps for less, but that has more to do with depreciation than better parts being available for less money. A high quality amp still costs about the same as it always did.

To me, this goes even further than choice of DAC chips .....   Or old and new technology.

 

Take a listen to the 13 yr old Naim CDX Cd player ... Now it's technology has been FAR surpassed, but I challenge you to find a player that will draw you in and make your foot tap more than this ...  Of course, this player also has a 25 lb power supply.

 

Or listen to the Sony SCD1 ....  Or even a Arcam Alpha 9 cd player ....  Really great sounding players, that MOST could live with forever.

 

My point ?   It is all in how the components are utilized .... How well done and large the power supplies are ... etc.

 

Want a GREAT budget DAC ?    Buy an older model Theta DAC for only a couple hundred dollars.

 

There are lots of good choices, but to just blanket statement that all newer DACs are better than the older ones .... to me just doesn't always ring true to me. However I will whole heartedly say this :  Sound quality which used to cost you $3000 to $5000, you can now get for under a grand !  And THIS is what is soooo cool about digital's growth !

I was kinda wondering about this myself and wanted to check out the replies. I have to say, regardless of the question at hand, that's got to be one of the most quick and beautiful responses I have ever read. Kudos to you.

Then there's the sub-$500 price point: you're getting both a DAC and and a headphone amp here:

 

Audinst HUD-mx1 = $180

Audio-Gd Sparrow (or Fun) = $240

Matrix Mini-I (balanced) =  $300

Little Dot Dac II = $320

Fubar IV+ = $350

Musiland MD-10 = $370

NuForce Icon HDP = $450

Yulong D100 = $500

Valeb Chameleon = $500

 

Or something used?  Even used, I can't see better separates coming in below $500, but please, correct me if I'm wrong.  

 

Keep in mind that an amplifier has a few more parts than a bottle, cork and liquid.

 

You really have to pay attention to the construction.  The Singlepower scandal has mostly passed, but some of them were built with underrated transformers that often died and - possibly - could have caught fire.  I'm not entirely sold on the construction values of some of the cheapest amps, either.

 

On the other hand, I don't ever worry about personal safety while keeping a bottle of Two Buck Chuck in the wine rack. 

 

 

Yeah well, those are VERY inexpensive DACs in the price range you are posting about.  I have seen $2500 Theta DACs from the late 90s sell for under $400.

 

However, once you get to the $600 to $1000 price range of today's DACs, you can better most of the DACs of the 90s, but certainly not all of them.
 

At the "below $500" range, I had a great experience with the EAD DSP-7000 and Forte F-50A DACs, both of which were wonderful.  Also, the Aragon D2A was a nice DAC for which you could get a great power supply (aftermarket or DIY preferred).

X2 on the EAD ....