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My theory as to why headphones appear to 'burn in'. - Page 16

post #226 of 261


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bangraman View Post

I'm amazed after hundreds, nay thousands of posts, that no-one else seems to have done what I did several years ago to verify claims whether burn-in itself is a real ocurrence.

 

 

This is a basic, obvious test and is far more productive than arguing it back and forth on the web based on your 'I'm right' ego-driven misconceptions. It perhaps speaks volumes about the nature of this forum these days that this doesn't come up at all.

 

 

- Buy two HD650's.  *NEW* (of course) from the same supplier so that you have more likelihood of obtaining two from the same batch.

 

Yeah, pretty obvious solution.


As for the financial part, this could be done before a headfi meeting. Contact a company like Grado or AKG or whatever is convenient and ask if they are willing to lend out 3 identical head phones from the same production series for a burn in test. Explain the concept of arranging a test with one pair that has had a week of non-stop playing before the meet vs. one pair that is absolutely virgin. The participants at the meet will not be told which is which, but will be able to compare the two test pairs with the third reference pair which is also at 0 hours playing. Tell the company that normally ~50 people turn up at those headfi meetings and that the results will be published here on head-fi.org. With a bit of luck at least one company will see the advantage of having a bunch of people audition their product and put reviews on a forum like this.

post #227 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Your post comes over as; we disagree, so you are going to be be abusive rather than participate in a reasonable debate with the intention of making me leave the forum.

 

I can post my theories here any time I want to. You cannot do anything about that and I will not back down whatever abuse you want to try and dish out.


not at all - not my intention. of course you can post any theory you want. doesn't affect me. but I won't back down either even if you start whining about abuse when in fact is just someone's fair observation.

 

anyway... whatever! 

 

(all somewhat tongue-in-cheeks)

post #228 of 261

The title of the thread is "My theory as to why headphones appear to 'burn in'. So even if the man had two brand new headphones, saved one, burned the other in for countless of hours and verified that they sounded different, he would still not be convinced. We are all wasting our time with this doubting Thomas.

 



 

post #229 of 261

I've probably been harder on the OP than anyone here.  Just to be fair he has stated many times he does see evidence for and believes phones can burn-in.  At this point in the thread the arguments are much more nuanced than basic generalizations or universal claims on either side.  But that's the problem w/ threads like these, it just incites so much personal feeling.  It's too difficult for anyone to not be offended when someone is basically claiming 'you have no idea what you are hearing, let me explain why you are stupid.'  Yes people make false attributions due to psychoacoustics, poor methodology and what not.  At the same time most of us are born w/ the gift of hearing from day one and have many years of experience w/ the phenomena.  Yet the nature we have as Headfiers leads us to seek a commanding grasp or expertise on a matter that simply has far too many variables uncontrollable or otherwise to make a definitive universal claim in such an informal setting.     


Edited by Anaxilus - 11/19/10 at 6:49pm
post #230 of 261

he has also states that burned in headphones revert back to the original state if left alone to "recover". This is also a easy thing to verify instead of arguing and debating until Christ comes back. 

post #231 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT View Post

he has also states that burned in headphones revert back to the original state if left alone to "recover". This is also a easy thing to verify instead of arguing and debating until Christ comes back. 


He was making that claim based on a subwoofer test that was linked I believe.  

post #232 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by strandvaskeren View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bangraman View Post

I'm amazed after hundreds, nay thousands of posts, that no-one else seems to have done what I did several years ago to verify claims whether burn-in itself is a real ocurrence.

 

 

This is a basic, obvious test and is far more productive than arguing it back and forth on the web based on your 'I'm right' ego-driven misconceptions. It perhaps speaks volumes about the nature of this forum these days that this doesn't come up at all.

 

 

- Buy two HD650's.  *NEW* (of course) from the same supplier so that you have more likelihood of obtaining two from the same batch.

 

Yeah, pretty obvious solution.


As for the financial part, this could be done before a headfi meeting. Contact a company like Grado or AKG or whatever is convenient and ask if they are willing to lend out 3 identical head phones from the same production series for a burn in test. Explain the concept of arranging a test with one pair that has had a week of non-stop playing before the meet vs. one pair that is absolutely virgin. The participants at the meet will not be told which is which, but will be able to compare the two test pairs with the third reference pair which is also at 0 hours playing. Tell the company that normally ~50 people turn up at those headfi meetings and that the results will be published here on head-fi.org. With a bit of luck at least one company will see the advantage of having a bunch of people audition their product and put reviews on a forum like this.

 

Failing that, I may be persuaded to do it under the following conditions:

 

- UK head-fi meet

 

- I purchase / burn in the phones. One of the phones will be burned in (min 100 hours, at which point many have documented significant changes in the sound for the HD650), the other not, as indicated by the methodology. To eliminate possibilities of the 'return' as previously discussed, it will be timed so that the burn-in phone is packed no more than ~three days before the meet and it is dispatched by next day post. Headphones will be labelled A & B and included will be a sealed envelope indicating which is the burned-in phone.

 

- Organiser will provide photographic proof that the envelope was opened after everyone has listened and decided which is the burned-in phone.

 

- Organiser will publish results of attendee choices - not by specifics, but an aggregate of the choices. Attendees will also be able to choose C as an option: i.e. no difference.

 

- Organiser sells the phones here after meet for a median used price as agreed and Paypal's me the proceeds

 

 

If anyone is interested, they should link me to details of the Head-Fi meet on here via PM.

 

(EDIT: I'm likely going into Head-Fi hibernation again so be quick)


Edited by bangraman - 11/21/10 at 2:38pm
post #233 of 261

Out of the two headphone burn-in tests I've seen (Sony k701, and I believe a Sony MDR-V6 or similar) there's been no evidence of headphone burn-in.  Given I think the longest time they had on them iirc was 500hrs.

 

If anyone's really interested I'll post the links.  I think Tyll was the one that did the K701 test to 200hrs.  The Sony was one of the Japanese measurement sites mentioned in a thread around here for a compilation of sites that do measurements.

post #234 of 261
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post



He was making that claim based on a subwoofer test that was linked I believe.  

 

 

Yes, pages 9 and 10 of this thread contain most of links and then page 13 and grarrgrarr's experience with headphones he had left to rest.

post #235 of 261
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post

.......

 

I'm pretty sure all the useful and interesting opinion, information and evidence you're referring to are about your posts on the placebo effect and other mental conditions you prolly like to label on other's experiences... lol

 

...........


 



Quote:
Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT View Post

he has also states that burned in headphones revert back to the original state if left alone to "recover". This is also a easy thing to verify instead of arguing and debating until Christ comes back. 



As on the above post, read the links on pages 9 and 10 and grarrgrarr's posts on page 13. The evidence is verified by more than one test.

 

My initial theory was brought on because I had bought a number of vintage headphones that sounded as if they were burning in (see the original post). I thought at the time that was all in the head. However, it would appear that I was wrong and there actually is burn in with dynamic speakers. But after resting, the burn in is reversed, hence my experience with the vintage headphones. This is also backed up by grarrgrarrs experience.

 

I am still open to other possibilities as I do not think that the evidence found and experiences related are enough to absolutely certain. The missing link, as ever with a lot of audiophile claims, is how audible is the difference?

post #236 of 261
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bangraman View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by strandvaskeren View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bangraman View Post

I'm amazed after hundreds, nay thousands of posts, that no-one else seems to have done what I did several years ago to verify claims whether burn-in itself is a real ocurrence.

 

 

This is a basic, obvious test and is far more productive than arguing it back and forth on the web based on your 'I'm right' ego-driven misconceptions. It perhaps speaks volumes about the nature of this forum these days that this doesn't come up at all.

 

 

- Buy two HD650's.  *NEW* (of course) from the same supplier so that you have more likelihood of obtaining two from the same batch.

 

Yeah, pretty obvious solution.


As for the financial part, this could be done before a headfi meeting. Contact a company like Grado or AKG or whatever is convenient and ask if they are willing to lend out 3 identical head phones from the same production series for a burn in test. Explain the concept of arranging a test with one pair that has had a week of non-stop playing before the meet vs. one pair that is absolutely virgin. The participants at the meet will not be told which is which, but will be able to compare the two test pairs with the third reference pair which is also at 0 hours playing. Tell the company that normally ~50 people turn up at those headfi meetings and that the results will be published here on head-fi.org. With a bit of luck at least one company will see the advantage of having a bunch of people audition their product and put reviews on a forum like this.

 

Failing that, I may be persuaded to do it under the following conditions:

 

- UK head-fi meet

 

- I purchase / burn in the phones. One of the phones will be burned in (min 100 hours, at which point many have documented significant changes in the sound for the HD650), the other not, as indicated by the methodology. To eliminate possibilities of the 'return' as previously discussed, it will be timed so that the burn-in phone is packed no more than ~three days before the meet and it is dispatched by next day post. Headphones will be labelled A & B and included will be a sealed envelope indicating which is the burned-in phone.

 

- Organiser will provide photographic proof that the envelope was opened after everyone has listened and decided which is the burned-in phone.

 

- Organiser will publish results of attendee choices - not by specifics, but an aggregate of the choices. Attendees will also be able to choose C as an option: i.e. no difference.

 

- Organiser sells the phones here after meet for a median used price as agreed and Paypal's me the proceeds

 

 

If anyone is interested, they should link me to details of the Head-Fi meet on here via PM.

 

(EDIT: I'm likely going into Head-Fi hibernation again so be quick)


I hope you are able to go ahead with this plan. Sorry I cannot help on this occasion.

post #237 of 261

Just to add my 2 cents to the discussion... concerning my Superlux, I was not immediately impressed with the way they sounded the first day. Sure it was nice, but I didn't really "enjoy" it.

I was constantly analyzing the sound and comparing it to something... fast forward 2 weeks later, and I can't keep my foot on the ground while listening to them. They make me extremely happy. That said, I don't think their sound has changed actually, but that my brain is now appreciating the sound and taking it for what it is. In a way, it has learned to enjoy the qualities of the headphones and gotten used to it.

Either way, it sounds better to me and I enjoy them way more now...and you know how it is, as long as it sounds better, does it really matter why? beyersmile.png

post #238 of 261

Here's some colored squiggles for the 'objectivists'.  All inaudible by the standards of those who know better of course. rolleyes.gif Enjoy.

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/evidence-headphone-break

 

110422_breakin_graph_frleft20300.jpg

post #239 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

Here's some colored squiggles for the 'objectivists'.  All inaudible by the standards of those who know better of course. rolleyes.gif Enjoy.

Heh, good one! Better read the article and take a closer look at the graphs.

To quote Tyll, who wrote the article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post

The numbers are small, baby, are you sure you hear it?

Also take a look at this: Amplitude vs. Frequency
Edited by xnor - 4/26/11 at 4:53am
post #240 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post


To quote Tyll, who wrote the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post

The numbers are small, baby, are you sure you hear it?



Also take a look at this: Amplitude vs. Frequency


Well...I also wrote this:

 

"There is one exception in my mind, however, the AKG K701 is notorious for needing long break-in, and I've heard it a number of times. It's got me convinced that there is such a thing as a break-in period for headphones, and some need it more than the others."

 

So, I have heard what I think is break-in on K701s.  And when I test headphones I always make sure they are run-in for at least 24 hours.

 

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