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What's your view on custom headphone cables? - Page 47

Poll Results: Custom Headphone Cables?

 
  • 20% (57)
    Yes: Only if they don't cost too much
  • 18% (53)
    Yes: I will shovel out some cash if they promise results
  • 6% (19)
    Yes: I will buy if they look nice
  • 23% (66)
    No: I don't believe in it
  • 14% (41)
    No: I'd rather spend money on something else
  • 15% (44)
    Maybe: Only if it "changes" the phone (IE Balanced option, etc.)
280 Total Votes  
post #691 of 821

Since switchboxes, preamps and any kind of "obstruction" in the signal path is evil according to you, you may be interested in reading this post, especially the part about how recordings are done.

Strangely enough, I manage to find a lot of recording that are very musical, even if the recording process didn't follow the "simplest path".

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio2001 View Post

The fidelity to the original performance it totally out of reach of current technology. This is brillantly demonstrated in Floyd Tool's book "Sound Reproduction", figure 3.3 page 36, with the directionality of a violin at different frequencies.

 

From 200 to 400 Hz, a violin is omnidirectional. You hear the direct sound, plus the sounds reflected on the lateral walls, the wall behind the performer, the floor and the ceiling. At 425 Hz, however, the violin doesn't emit in the back-down direction. Reflection on the back wall is lower, and the secondary reflection that bounces on the floor, back wall, then ceiling is severely attenuated. At 500 Hz, however, that's the dominant direction of emission.

And the directionality changes drastically many times given the frequency range. No speaker can reproduce the same soundfield with the same directions of emission for each frequency.

And that's for violin only. Other instruments are completely different, and emit different amounts of energy towards the walls, floor and ceiling.

 

A practical consequence : violins used to be recorded with microphones situated aboveand a bit in front of the orchestra. In this direction, violins emit a lot of energy in the 2500 - 5000 Hz range, that is not at all emitted in direction of the audience. Therefore the recorded sound was very different from the sound emitted in the direction of the audience. Recording engineers knew that in such recordings, it was better to attenuate treble. It could be thought to be a modification of the original sound, but it was not. On the contrary, this helped to artificially remake a violin sound that sounds like the one that is percieved from the audience.

 

So what if we record directly from the listener's position ? This way, we capture exactly what should be heard by the listener. The problem is that the original acoustic adds up with the acoustic of the reproduction room in a way that is completely unbearable.

 

Therefore, recording music is an art of recreating a soundstage, given an average listening room with an average two-channel setup, that is necessarily very far from the original, but still enjoyable. For example, the reflections on the wall that is behind you can't be recorded and reproduced with a two-channels system. They are replaced by new reflections created in the listening room. Which means that it's better eliminating the original ones so that they won't add up with the ones in your own room, coming from the front.

 

Try to record your own hifi with a stereo microphone from your favorite listening position, and play the recording back in the hifi. No, the microphone is not crappy, that's your room that sounds that way ! Make another recording with the left and right microphones just in front of the speakers to check. This experiment was one of the biggest surprises of my audiophile life : I had the microphone in hand, closed headphones on the head, and was moving the microphone from the speaker to the listening position back and forth, and I didn't understand what was happening : why did the sound change so drastically from the microphone point of view, while it didn't if I did the same thing with my own ears ?

The answer was that the brain is extremely good at eliminating the tonal balance of the room from the listening experience.

 

All these things make us reconsider the original question about fidelity to the original performance. Most of this fidelity is actually in the hands of the recording and mixing engineers, that have no other choice than to recreate an artificial soundstage and an artificial tonal balance that simulates a good listeneing experience, given that it is going to be used on a two-channels system in an average room.

 

So we are left with fidelity to the recording instead of fidelity to the live performance. If we can define fidelity for a speaker, it is not possible for a room. In low frequencies, rooms have very strong resonances that amplify some frequencies and not others. Even anechoic rooms are not very anechoic in low frequencies. And anyway, stereo recordings, as made in studio, are not suited at all for listening in anechoic rooms. They have not enough reverberation. Making a room that is neutral in low frequencies in very difficult. Some advise the use of as many subwofers as possible, scattered in strategic positions, so that they don't act on the same resonant frequencies in the room.

 

For speakers, the basics of good quality are quite undertood : they must have a flat frequency response in the axis, and a smooth frequency response outside the axis. How must attenuation must they have outside the axis ? I am not sure that there is any standard about this.

Also, in France, a story goes about Cabasse loudspeakers. Some models were claimed to have an excellent frequency response, but were not appreciated by audiophiles. The reason was that they were only good at realistic listening levels. But since home listening is usually performed at lower levels, these speakers seemed to lack bass and treble, because the human ear has not the same frequency response at different levels. This is easy to see on Fletcher-Mundson curves. Thus, a coloured speaker allows a listening experience that is closer to the original than a transparent speaker at domestic listening levels.

 

All these parameters makes the question of fidelity a very complex one.

post #692 of 821

khaos974 wrote:

 

All these parameters makes the question of fidelity a very complex one.

 

An interesting read indeed.  My opinion, there's more to this cable thing then the anti-cable crowd are allowing for.  To me, they're trying to overly simplify the listening experience with things like auto-suggestion and placebos, not including that these phenomenon are two-way streets as they continually make this conversation into a one-way conversation.

 

Me, I just want good sound and I personally, short of immorality, don't care how I get there.

 

Somewhere, to me, in this whole cable thing is the unraveling of compressed sound.  I came to this conclusion because my experience, the cables aid such a small percentage of the recorded material and in effect, compressing sound from a 3D world into a 2D media and then attempts are made to expand this 2D recorded material back into a 3D product.  As everybody knows, in the case of recorded music, everything is a chain of events from creation of the music to the emotional response the unraveled recorded music has on the person perceiving the reconstituted analogue sound waves.

post #693 of 821

PRM, the switch box I have will do its job, some will say well. But to me it is a bottle neck. Never implied all headphone cables are good. Just that I make all my own cables and I know what works for me. Also the metallurgy behind the different metals it takes to make cables and learned their characteristics.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

BIG POPPA and Beeman, I am a bit stuck as to why you attribute negative affects to audio with a switchbox and positive ones with a headphone cable? What is in a switchbox that is bad and a headphone cable that is good?

post #694 of 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

 

My opinion, there's more to this cable thing then the anti-cable crowd are allowing for.  To me, they're trying to overly simplify the listening experience with things like auto-suggestion and placebos, not including that these phenomenon are two-way streets as they continually make this conversation into a one-way conversation.


I think it is entirely possible that I would claim 'no difference' in a blind cable test when a difference actually existed (a hidden equalizer is adjusted) simply because I think it is impossible for a cable to influence a sound signature outside of known parameters. No question in my mind that it could and probably would happen.

 

It is a little funny you mention the one-way street idea. When a 'believer' brings up the placebo effect or other similar mental processes, it is usually to suggest a reason why a 'non-believer' might not hear a difference from cables. It is extremely rare that one will acknowledge their own impressions could be shaped by these processes. These things can only happen to other people.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

 

Me, I just want good sound and I personally, short of immorality, don't care how I get there.

I have no problem with this. I will no longer buy amps that I do not find aesthetically pleasing. There is no question in my mind that looks have an effect on my listening experience. A significant part of the reason I love my Leben is because I think it looks so freaking cool. I love turning it on, touching the nice aluminum knobs and having it in my view as I listen to music. It contributes to the experience. Others do not care so much about these things and see added expense for aesthetics to be wasted money. I think they are 'right' in a way, but I have not really needed to break myself from that way of thinking. Even if I did a blind test and could not tell it apart from a $50 cmoy, I would still keep the Leben. The gear-head in me just loves it. It is worth it for me to spend more for a good looking amp to get that added satisfaction when using my rig. But, what I won't do is ever deny the influence of aesthetics on my opinion of the Leben's sonic qualities. I generally try to qualify my statements and impressions and try acknowledge possible influence on them.

 

Very very few people here can rightly claim to be true Taoists when purchasing gear. Some get pleasure from swanky kit and others can get a similar enjoyment or satisfaction from the rugged DIY scene, few have a truly function-only opinion of their gear. This is what it means to be a gear-head. Yes, let's have a two-way street on this discussion. All of our opinions of our gear are at least somewhat influenced by unrelated mental processes. It is not such a hard thing to admit.

 

There are some cool looking cables out there. They are exciting to purchase and unwrap (or build). They feel good in our hands. It is enjoyable to think of them connecting our gear. And this pleasure, without a doubt, influences our experience listening to music. At least admit this much and at least acknowledge that you cannot know for sure how much of your impression of the effects of the cable is due to unrelated mental processes. That would be a start. I struggle to understand why so few 'believers' can actually take this step.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

 

To me, they're trying to overly simplify the listening experience ...

 

Somewhere, to me, in this whole cable thing is the unraveling of compressed sound.  I came to this conclusion because my experience, the cables aid such a small percentage of the recorded material and in effect, compressing sound from a 3D world into a 2D media and then attempts are made to expand this 2D recorded material back into a 3D product.  As everybody knows, in the case of recorded music, everything is a chain of events from creation of the music to the emotional response the unraveled recorded music has on the person perceiving the reconstituted analogue sound waves.

 

To me, you are making the listening experience way too complicated and adding an abstract 'mystical' layer to the process that distracts from the simplicity. Unraveling of sound? What does this mean exactly? Our emotional response and personal experiences listening to music are the result of unfathomably complicated mental processes. No doubt about that. The conversion of sound waves to electrical signals to sound waves again is much, much more simple. The properties of conductors are understood to the level of precise mathematical formulas. Because of this rock-solid understanding, our technology has flourished. Because of this simplicity and this knowledge, we can get the stunningly life-like audio reproduction from our gear that we all here treasure. That some unknown property of the wire in your cables is influencing the sound produced by your transducers would stand against everything that is known and shown to be reliable in the countless applications of wire conductors. The likelihood is infinitesimal.

 

The recording and reproduction of sound waves is amazing and mysterious in the sense that 'Everything is amazing and mysterious.' The existence of my coffee cup is amazing and mysterious in this same way. For the purposes of my daily existence, a cup and how it works is quite mundane. So is wire. Both behave exactly as the are supposed to under the known laws of physics. Understanding how audio is recorded and reproduced and how wire conducts electrical signals takes a little more work than understanding how a coffee cup works. But not that much more. We are not talking about what happens at the center of a black hole. As far as I can tell, a lack of understanding of the simplicity of the process is what allows for an idea like wire having an undiscovered influence to take hold in a belief system.

post #695 of 821

These things can only happen to other people.

 

I'm not the one trying to prove anything other than I'm good with what I do hear.  I'm not the one telling people they're nuts.  I'm the one saying if you don't hear a difference, good for you.

 

At least admit this much and at least acknowledge that you cannot know for sure how much of your impression of the effects of the cable is due to unrelated mental processes. That would be a start. I struggle to understand why so few 'believers' can actually take this step.

 

When you learn that none of it is important, you'll find that it doesn't matter and when you come to this conclusion, you'll find there never was a struggle.

 

 

 


Edited by beeman458 - 9/7/10 at 8:56pm
post #696 of 821


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

 

I'm not the one telling people they're nuts. 

 

I am not either. The mental processes that can account for perceiving changes when none exist are quite normal. Someone without those processes would indeed be 'nuts.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

 

I'm not the one trying to prove anything other than I'm good with what I do hear.

 

 

When you learn that none of it is important, you'll find that it doesn't matter and when you come to this conclusion, you'll find there never was a struggle.


Nothing that happens on this site or having to do with listening to music is truly important to me or to you I am sure. It is something we do for fun. I enjoy engaging in discussion, sharing my ideas and reading others. That is what I am doing here. Do I really care if someone holds the belief that cables can influence the sounds of their systems? No, but if that idea is put forward as a fact into a discussion in this subforum, then I can enjoy debating it. That is all I am doing here.

 

You are presenting arguments in this thread that extend beyond what you hear. You suggest the idea that the placebo effect was a one-way street. I provided another opinion on the topic. You described a process of 'unraveling music' and I questioned it. You are contributing to the debate and making points. I am simply responding. If you would like to provide counter-arguments to my points, please do. I would enjoy reading them. But, do not lay down some 'it doesn't matter' trump card after you have already made some assertions. If you are just looking to wax-poetic on the joy of cables and your self-contentment with the issue, do it in the cables subforum. I am pretty sure Sound Science is all about discussing scientific explanations for what we hear and how our gear works. Again, I would be delighted if you did more of that.

 

Look, I have no problem that someone hears a difference when swapping cables. I am 'good with that' too. I am happy to live and let live on this issue. But please, do not assert it as a truth in discussion without being prepared to back it up. At least keep such statements within the confines of the Cables subforum. I would be a lot less interested in this issue if it was not so present in the Headphones subforum. To me it detracts from the fun of participating in this site.

 

 

 

 

post #697 of 821


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

nick_charles wrote:

 

How do you explain the positive DBTs that have been done in the audio field if the protocol is consistently misapplied ?

 

I can't.  Why?  I'm not familiar with the tests you mentioned, so I haven't a clue what's what.  Maybe you can explain the positives when the anti-cable side claims there's not a single positive to be had and they have their uncollected million dollar award to back their claim up with.

 

???

 

The point Beeman has failed to grasp is that there have been positive blind tests for the likes of bit rates and speakers. There are clear measurable differences between different bit rates and different speakers and that they then go on to be identified in blind tests show that blind tests work. They produce a positive result when there is an audible difference. With cables, they produce a negative result. It is then reasonable to conclude, since the test method is not flawed, to say that cables make no audible difference.
 

post #698 of 821

 

Earlier in this thread I became very quickly labelled "anti-cable" because I was writing about auto-suggestion.

 

I don't dispute that changing cables can make a difference to sound just as changing any other component can also do so.

 

However I think the reported changes are often simply the result of auto-suggestion.

 

You will read people writing lengthy descriptions of the influence of certain cables and even prescribing different cables for different situations.

 

These lengthy descriptions are often simply the reports of auto-suggestion.

 

The impact of auto-suggestion when listening to hi fi stuff is absolutely huge and massively underestimated by most people.

 

Auto-suggestion impacts on all equipment listening of course, it is just that in the area of cables, I think it is at its most vivid.

 

An interesting thing about cable retailers is that often they will describe the effects that certain cables will supposedly have on sound.

 

"The orange one will warm up the mid-range"

 

"The purple one will fill out the bass"

 

"The green one will smooth out the treble".

 

So the consumer pays often a very high price for the colour they want, plug it in and of course immediately they hear the result! They didn't think cables had much influence, but boy, now they've tried it and, yes, they got the purple one and their bass is really filled out!

 

I think a blind listening test will very quickly reveal the truth of this.

post #699 of 821

Any good confidence trickster or hypnotist will tell you:

 

The people who believe themselves to be impervious are the most susceptible!

post #700 of 821

Gu Sensei wrote:

 

I am not either.

 

But if you're part of the anti-cable crowd participating in this thread, you're part of a group who is and this was the group that I was referring to.

 

If you are just looking to wax-poetic on the joy of cables and your self-contentment with the issue, do it in the cables subforum.

 

The thread was moved and I came with the package as did everybody else.

 

But please, do not assert it as a truth in discussion without being prepared to back it up.

 

That's your mantra, not mine.  There is no scientific evidence to back up the anti-cable claims as all they have are their bogus tests which don't pass muster for reasons I've stated many times.  You want a debate.  Good for you.  Me?  I just want people to live in peace and that means letting people enjoy their cables, unmolested.  You want to argue and I don't.  So you won't get an argument from me.  If you can't hear a difference, I'm happy for you.  You don't have to prove to me that you can't hear a difference.  Why?  Because I believe you.  I hear a difference, I'm happy for me also.  Try doing the same, be happy for those who can as well as be happy for those who can't.  There's only an argument, because you want an argument.

 


Edited by beeman458 - 9/8/10 at 7:07am
post #701 of 821

p a t r i c k wrote:

 

Any good confidence trickster or hypnotist will tell you:

 

The people who believe themselves to be impervious are the most susceptible!

 

And those who live their lives as if the above is overarching, are called paranoid.

 

You guys are incorrigible.  There's not a placebo, hypnotist, auto-suggestion or trickster around every corner.  Get a grip.  When your argument gets summed up as if the above is the sole driving force, it blatantly shows your bias as it shows you've already made up your mind.  I'm happy for you.

 

Pretty sad there are all these people out their willing to spend their money on all these cables and you guys can't stop the flow.  Must be very frustrating.

 

"Must stop people from enjoying themselves, their way."

 

I get it.

 


Edited by beeman458 - 9/8/10 at 7:01am
post #702 of 821

beeman very well could win passive-aggressive poster of the year.

 

 

Gu Sensei, I very much enjoyed reading your post # 694.  It is a truly insightful post about this hobby.

post #703 of 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

How do you explain the positive DBTs that have been done in the audio field if the protocol is consistently misapplied ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman458 View Post

I can't.  Why?  I'm not familiar with the tests you mentioned, so I haven't a clue what's what.  Maybe you can explain the positives when the anti-cable side claims there's not a single positive to be had and they have their uncollected million dollar award to back their claim up with.

 

???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

The point Beeman has failed to grasp is that there have been positive blind tests for the likes of bit rates and speakers. There are clear measurable differences between different bit rates and different speakers and that they then go on to be identified in blind tests show that blind tests work. They produce a positive result when there is an audible difference. With cables, they produce a negative result. It is then reasonable to conclude, since the test method is not flawed, to say that cables make no audible difference.


Its simple really.  Magic cables don't work when contaminated by the skeptics' bad vibes.

post #704 of 821

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Monkey View Post

 

Gu Sensei, I very much enjoyed reading your post # 694.  It is a truly insightful post about this hobby.


x2. I would say the same about # 696.

 

"Nothing that happens on this site or having to do with listening to music is truly important to me or to you I am sure. It is something we do for fun. I enjoy engaging in discussion, sharing my ideas and reading others. That is what I am doing here. Do I really care if someone holds the belief that cables can influence the sounds of their systems? No, but if that idea is put forward as a fact into a discussion in this subforum, then I can enjoy debating it. That is all I am doing here."

post #705 of 821

x3, I enjoy the debate as well.

 

It has made me far far happier with the kit that I have and removed the doubts that the pro side cause. I used to be concerned that I was missing out by suggesting that I need this and that 'upgrade' to really enjoy your music and that I may not enjoy the golden ears that they all have. The pro side constantly suggest there are improvements to be made which are substantial, night and day or some other exaggerated or just down right untrue claims.

 

I think that the pro side, for all the comment about 'just enjoying the music' cause many to have doubts about their kit. The anti side are far more likely to say, no you do not need that, your kit is fine, you will hardly notice a difference, which for beginners and those on a limited budget is a great relief and confidence boost.

 

Because forums such as this one side line the anti-side, we are easier to attack, leaving the bulk of the advice to the pro side, which I would say is more likely to make people unhappy with their hifi. So they 'need' to buy that cable to become 'happy' but often find it makes no difference, so they remain unhappy and so it goes on.

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