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Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables? - Page 13

post #181 of 241


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofil View Post

Well, the point of the test is to show that the geometry of the cable makes a difference and it is measurable.

 


Well, a cable's geometry ultimately establishes the cable's resistance, inductance and capacitance, which is measurable. So what exactly is the revelation here?

 

Quote:
To make it really useful they'd need to translate that difference (or lack of) into something meaningful for audio reproduction.

 

But they haven't. So I still don't see anything particularly useful.

 

Quote:

I truly think that cable science is only at the beginning and has yet to produce valuable data showing their effect on audio.

 

I disagree. There's perhaps nothing more well understood than a cable.

 

Quote:
Don't forget the Earth has been considered flat for thousands of years till proven otherwise. That hasn't made it less round, has it ?

 

No. But we're hardly in the "flat earth" stage when it comes to cables. Well, at least the rest of the world is. Much of high end audio is still something of a technological backwater where ignorance, myth and superstition still hold sway.

 

se

post #182 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofil View Post

I truly think that cable science is only at the beginning and has yet to produce valuable data showing their effect on audio.

 


Cable science is not "only at the beginning".

 

The problem that the people who want us to spend a fortune on cables have is that the standard competently constructed cable is truly superb at its job.

 

The standard cables are probably the least problematic components in the signal chain.

 

The transducers, for example, are massively more destructive to the signal than the cables, 1000s of times more destructive.

 

However the reason why the cable companies dream up all this pseudo-science for cables is that you can just unplug cables of course, so the consumer can easily change them. This makes them ideal commodities.

 

 

post #183 of 241


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by p a t r i c k View Post




So do I smily_headphones1.gif

 

The key thing that is missing from the scientific observations with credibility (rather than the pure pseudo science stuff) is quantification.

 

Often we are told that such and such will make some sort of difference but there is unfortunately absolutely no indication as to how much difference.

 

Quantification can be by analysing signals or it can be by statistics from well controlled blind ABX listening tests.





Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofil View Post



 

Sure ... I've found that cable science is, most of the time and for most people (manufacturers, users, skeptics), more of a rhetorical exercise than anything else.

Either it comes from a cable company you tries to sell a product and back it up with some fancy literature or from a fervent skeptic who repeats like mad the same "it's all voodoo" phrase, both seem just as pointless.

 

 

On the other hand, if we approach things with an open mind we may actually learn something.

 

Back to the video I've linked before. In the test he basically runs a 2Khz square wave through a speaker cable and compares the signal coming straight from the wave generator to the (same) signal transmitted through the cable.

Inverting the phase on the cable end allows the oscilloscope to show the differences between input and output (by subtraction).

 

 

Just as food for thought here is a quote from Headroom's literature on square wave tests:

 

 

I wish we could see more .... science on this cable matter, so we can put to rest the ridiculous religious war between the chosen ones and the infidels.



(The quotes have come up the wrong way round). The point I want to pick up is the request for more science. The fact is that threads that have more science tend to be ignored, particularly by the pro-cable side. For example the thread on audiophile myths containing lots of blind tests. The thread on headphone burn in theory. It died a death as soon as the theory was scrapped and science was introduced. The thread on positive blind tests and how that proves blind tests are not bogus.

 

The pro-cable side will only argue in theoretical terms, as the science does not support them.

post #184 of 241

it's been known to be round/spherical since at least the ancient greeks, and likely long before, ever since humankind set to sea or looked to the horizon and saw that curve.  I think the greeks and arabs even measured the circumference of the earth, accurately i might add.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofil View Post

 

Don't forget the Earth has been considered flat for thousands of years till proven otherwise. That hasn't made it less round, has it ?

 

 


Edited by googleborg - 10/5/10 at 3:52am
post #185 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by googleborg View Post

it's been known to be round/spherical since at least the ancient greeks, and likely long before, ever since humankind set to sea or looked to the horizon and saw that curve.  I think the greeks and arabs even measured the circumference of the earth, accurately i might add.
 

 



You beat me to this googleborg smily_headphones1.gif

 

I was going to write much the same thing.

 

The idea that the earth is flat is a very modern idea and was really to do with the development of "anti-science".

 

"Flat earthing" is about denying scientific discovery and observation.

 

 

 

post #186 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by p a t r i c k View Post




But the "problem" described by you is one of mechanical vibration influencing the sound.

 

Where are the results of the "extensive research"  showing the nature of this problem and how it manifests itself?

 

I can't see how the research showing the problem exists in the first place would be "classified".

 

.....



I'm still eagerly waiting on an answer to patrick's simple request for some research demonstrating that mechanical vibrations within a cable influence sound quality.  Particularly now that the cable schematic is out of the bag (per post #147), I would really appreciate an explanation of the practical benefit of this design and the issue it is attempting to resolve.   

post #187 of 241


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post



I'm still eagerly waiting on an answer to patrick's simple request for some research demonstrating that mechanical vibrations within a cable influence sound quality.  Particularly now that the cable schematic is out of the bag (per post #147), I would really appreciate an explanation of the practical benefit of this design and the issue it is attempting to resolve.   


And keep in mind that he's not just talking about simple mechanical vibration, but phonons. That really takes the cake.

 

se

 

 

post #188 of 241

I'm using cheap Monster wire for one speaker on my stereo and even cheaper bell wire for the other one. There is absolutely no difference, and I'm one of those people who can not only hear a pin drop, but also hear what kind of pin it is and exactly where it went.

 

I can even hear your thoughts. Spooky, no?

 

But seriously, I have never thought I've heard a cable make a difference except for a couple of very low quality ones doing odd things.

post #189 of 241
Believing you can hear differences in cables despite the fact that science says otherwise is the most ignorant thing I've yet to see on head-fi.
post #190 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by garrett21 View Post

Believing you can hear differences in cables despite the fact that science says otherwise is the most ignorant thing I've yet to see on head-fi.

 

Ah, you've not been here very long then. There are far more looney assertions you will see here. For instance power cables influencing sound, cable risers, green felt pens ........

post #191 of 241
And let's not forget "ambient field conditioners" like the blackbody. I have a good chuckle evry time I think about how this used to popup in headfi banner ads. (http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html )
post #192 of 241

^ what's this ? some kind of bad energy absorber ? deadhorse.gif

post #193 of 241

yep, definitely try them out before getting, after all, if your ears can't tell the difference forget about the upgrade...

post #194 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

 

Ah, you've not been here very long then. There are far more looney assertions you will see here. For instance power cables influencing sound, cable risers, green felt pens ........

 

Green felt pens used on the edge of CD's was the first audio improvement "rumor/wives tale" I ever heard; way back in '89 when my dad got his first one.

post #195 of 241

Its worth it if you think it sounds better and If you think it sounds better, it does ;).  Quality of sound is psychological and not so much scientific when it comes to cables...

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