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Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables? - Page 10

post #136 of 241

I'm only saying in my above, if you want to complain about the price, start your own business.  Other than that, it's become nothing more then another internet whine.

 

they could just swing their vastly higher purchasing power and scales of economy, labour cost, R&D, precision machining and tooling, and offer headphones with the best cables already as 'upgraded' models, or their own after-market upgrades.

 

With all due respect, I'd be willing to bet that most folks who agree with your above, aren't business owners, are against slave labor wages and are dependent on others for their livelyhood.

 

The higher end headphone market, obviously is a niche market.  There's not much room for economy of scale to take place as not many folks want to pay four hundred dollars for a headphone set and ya gotta sell the headphones first, for there to be a market to sell upgrade products into.  And if you do want to do things cheaply, you'll find cheap labor takes place in slave wage, labor markets.  You are for a living wage and decent standard of living for workers aren't you.  And labor (cost of goods and services) get expensive real fast if you're paying workers benefits, required taxes and a $60 - $80k lifestyle to pay their taxes with.  But then again, you can go to countries for your labor where folks have to live on the floor of the manufacturing plant, with a garden hose for a shower and a hole in the floor for a toilet, open pit sanitary drains outside and sell your products for a whole lot less.

 

I submit that Sound Science walks hand-in-hand with sound business principals.  Why?  They both need money to operate.  I won't get into the politics of funding scientific research, private Vs public and how one requires a profit and the other doesn't.  And without customers (product sales), no business is a business unless supplemented with other people's money.


Edited by beeman458 - 10/3/10 at 9:53am
post #137 of 241

Goldring get QED to make their headphone cables for the NS1000, available for £60 off Play.com. I cannot think of any other headphone maker who 'contracts out' their cables. It would be a good marketing tool. 

post #138 of 241

 

It is my belief that these Warren Audio cables along with the other voodoo cables at extraordinarily high prices really are just laughably overpriced for what is materially on offer and that there is no actual quantifiable research into the creation of these cables.
 
At Warren Audio website they claim that there has been "exhaustive reseach" but the answers from their representative are spurious.
 
If Warren Audio had conducted "exhaustive research" there would be a boat load of evidence for this in terms of papers, results and patents.
 
In fact there is nothing of the sort.
 
Let us take the descriptions of one of the cables, this is being sold for $229.99.
 
You can see the description here:
 
 
You have to wade through endless attributes to the cable about the influence it will have on the sound, however no results from blind ABX tests are given. Surely the "exhaustive research" would have included blind ABX tests?
 
Warren Audio claims that they have a new insulation which "flawlessly neutralizes vibrations".
 
There is no description of this new insulation. No indication as to how the, presumably mechanical vibrations are neutralised, nor as to how that improves the sound.
 
The funniest part comes next.
 
Warren audio describes:
 
"Precision planetary placement of the helically-twisted conductors"
 
Well, the conductors for all cables with a common outer casing are in a planetary position. The very cheapest cable you could buy of this type will have planetary placement of the conductors.
 
The process of helically twisting the conductors will not add any price to the cable as this is done automatically by a machine in seconds. Maybe the cable manufacturer could add 10 cents to the cable for a job like this.
 
If you look into that description there is nothing in it that warrants a significant increase in the price of the cable.
 
You could buy a perfectly good cable from an honest retailer for a fraction of the price of this nonsense and it will be just as good quality, in fact judging by the reports of some Warren Audio customers the quality of construction of an honest cable will possibly be very much better than this nonsense.
 
My guess is that these cables actually cost 1/10th of the stated retail price to manufacture.
 
Needless to say the "golden ears" will lap them up. They will "hear" things that are suggested to them. They like to read pseudo science nonsense, but the "golden ears" run a mile from real science with blind ABX testing which would illustrate just what they can and cannot hear.
 
You do not have to waste time or money on this nonsense.
 
These voodoo cables will not bring any tangible benefits to you audio system.
post #139 of 241

I don't like it when someone refers to one review posted by a member with just a few posts before, then I get suspicious as this turns out to be a new product and going on claiming that's it patent pending and $20K research, the only thing that I'm seeing as of right now is a Red Herring.

 

If this is flying over someones head, you can read up on Proof by Intimidation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity

 

A headphone cable costing nearly as much as the headphone is just so over the top, but those already suffering of cognitive dissonance are at a conundrum and is the right way.. to convince others to make the same choice and burn of a load of cash?

 

At least do a honest blind ABX-test!

post #140 of 241

As I have already stated, that information, papers, research, is all classified information until we receive confirmation of our patent pending status. 

 

The insulation material is also classified as of now since we are the first and only company to ever use it in an audio application. 

 

Rather bold statements for someone who has never so much as seen one of our products. We have customers who refuse to listen to their headphones unless it has one of our cables attached to it, even despite already owning cables from our competitors. 

 

And our pricing, is at the lowest end of the headphone cable market. We even offer a 50% off discount when trading in one of our competitors cables, or one of our older model cables. Hardly "extraordinarily high prices". 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Rick Warren

Warren Audio

post #141 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

As I have already stated, that information, papers, research, is all classified information until we receive confirmation of our patent pending status. 

 

The insulation material is also classified as of now since we are the first and only company to ever use it in an audio application.


But the "problem" described by you is one of mechanical vibration influencing the sound.

 

Where are the results of the "extensive research"  showing the nature of this problem and how it manifests itself?

 

I can't see how the research showing the problem exists in the first place would be "classified".

 

In your description of the cables you use scientific-sounding language to describe the mundane. Things that are of very little consequence with regard to manufacturing costs.

 

There is nothing at all described in the manufacture of these cables that warrants a high price.

 

The only thing seems to be this "exhaustive research" for which the results are "classified".

 

Writing generally, the voodoo cable market is a massive rip off.

 

Cables are routinely sold for ten times their manufacturing price.

 

The adoring and idiotic "golden ears" lap them up.

 

I suggest that people avoid voodoo cable companies.

 

Buy from companies that do not make spurious claims about "exhaustive research".

 

Do not buy from companies that describe mundane manufacturing processes in pseudo-scientific language.

post #142 of 241

Albedo wrote:

 

A headphone cable costing nearly as much as the headphone is just so over the top,...

 

Albedo (or others), since you're not buying them, how's it over the top?  How much do you think it costs to run a business in your neighborhood?  Remember, as an employer, you're expected to pay employees a living wage that allows for food, rent, utilities, home maintenance, transportation, taxes, education, child care above health care, government labor regulations, training, vacations and insurance; a lifestyle above slave wages.  This does not mention normal business overhead to support this unappreciated endeavor by others.

 

I read about folks complaining about prices, but I don't see a business discussion to back up the overpriced claims.  All I ever read are, comments about what it costs to cobble a pair of cables together at the kitchen table with no discussion about "real" business costs.  I guess I could complain about the price of salmon in the local grocery store if I lived next to a salmon bearing stream, the salmon were plentiful and in season.  But of course, that wouldn't take into consideration all the costs it takes to get salmon from the stream to the market, just so I can complain about the price.

 

A question, how silly would I look in front of everybody if I went into that same said market and in public, complained to the store manager and I told everybody listening that not only do I think the price is a rip, but I don't even like the taste of salmon and have no intention of buying any.  Even you guys would think I was nuts if you saw or heard me do that and in truth, that's what you guys are doing here when you complain about the price of custom headphone cables.

 

The point, don't you think if you're gonna say that it's over the top pricing, for something you don't want to buy and have no intention of buying, that at least it would be fair to discuss real business costs in relationship to the retail price of the headphone cables, before saying it's a rip?

 

???


Edited by beeman458 - 10/3/10 at 2:45pm
post #143 of 241

Some companies (like Supra or Mogami) are located in first-world nation and get by without the ridiculous pricing, their no-nonsense professionalism speak for itself and their claims are legit because they are not of the mumbo-jumbo kind. Supra have a staff of fifteen and gets by pretty well and are not shunned because they do deliver on what they are claiming. Funny thing is that they for some reason don't seem that interested in the headphone cable market, there are two alternative paths, DIY which of course is dirt-cheap or hire someone to the the soldering which is both reasonable and of course doable.

 

Here a thought.. what if the stock cable isn't all that shoddy, maybe a re-soldering is the way to go on such "cheap" headphones as the HD 600, maybe opt for a better plug. Certainly none in their right mind (cognitive dissonance -> post-purchase rationalization) actually recommend a purchase of a cable costing nearly $400 with the aforementioned headphone?

 

If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck...


Edited by Albedo - 10/3/10 at 3:24pm
post #144 of 241


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

As I have already stated, that information, papers, research, is all classified information until we receive confirmation of our patent pending status. 

 


Don't see any patent applications from either you or Warren Audio.

 

se

 

 

post #145 of 241


 

Why would I disclose to the public a patent application?  patent applications are for the patent office only. And even they do not post accepted applications to the public until 18 months after they accept them. Our application is awaiting acceptance, and therefore is not available to the public.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post


 


Don't see any patent applications from either you or Warren Audio.

 

se

 

 

post #146 of 241
Rick, the USPTO (www.uspto.gov) will confirm if a patent is pending. That has nothing to do with disclosure of the application contents.

When did you file your patent application?
post #147 of 241


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

Why would I disclose to the public a patent application?  patent applications are for the patent office only. And even they do not post accepted applications to the public until 18 months after they accept them.



That's funny. I'm looking at a patent application right now (20100164718) that was filed on March 11th of this year.

 

And if you indeed are seeking a patent, then why did you put this "official technical drawing" of your cable in the public domain?

 

warrencable.jpg

se

 

 

post #148 of 241

Ever take a close look at your audio components?  They are soldered with yes - lead solder.  All that fancy wire feeding the headphones and components and they must pass through lead solder before reaching your ears.  Interesting?

post #149 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubwicht View Post

Ever take a close look at your audio components?  They are soldered with yes - lead solder.  All that fancy wire feeding the headphones and components and they must pass through lead solder before reaching your ears.  Interesting?



Not to take away from your main point, but lead solder's being phased out these days because of RoHS (Removal of Hazardous Substances) initiative. Most of the lead-free alloys are either tin/silver alloys or pure tin.

 

se

 

post #150 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by googleborg View Post

I wish companies would stop making products that have such glaring and obvious weaknesses which are so easily solved!  I mean, if the improvements were so good, indeed worth the cost of entire headphones in-themselves, they could just swing their vastly higher purchasing power and scales of economy, labour cost, R&D, precision machining and tooling, and offer headphones with the best cables already as 'upgraded' models, or their own after-market upgrades.

 

Are you telling me that they've not thought about this?

 

Are you telling me it's more efficient for countless "little men" operations to do this that have to charge so much just to make it viable, than for the likes of Sennheiser, who could implement these improvements in such scales as to ameliorate the cost of entry by massively cutting these "viability" costs, thus lowering the barrier to entry thus increasing sales/aftermarket sales whilst maintaining profit margins.

 

I mean if all these super expensive tweaks amounted to jack, they'd do it.

 


That's funny, I was about to make a post saying practically the same thing.

 

If headphone cables made a difference, the R&D costs would probably be lower than the return at the headphone manufacturers, and they would have the best cables possible from the start. These guys have more engineering skill than all of cabledom combined.

 

But apparently, they "don't."

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