What is the rationale behind the prohibition of DBT discussion? - Page 30

I started a thread on the DiffMaker here

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/515036/find-out-if-your-new-cable-has-made-an-audible-difference

It has not had many responses!

I totally agree with sokolov's comment that those who revel in psuedoscience reject simple blind testing?! Then, when another means of testing their claims is presented to them, with the DiffMaker, it is ignored. It does indeed beggar belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 

I just don't see why everything is so charged. With research and studying both sides only stand to gain, not lose in the end.

 

And I am with MaverickRonin: DBT is as close as we are going to get in terms proving/disproving humans can detect sonic differences without other triggers. Might not be the final word, but it is substantial proof and should not be brushed aside as so many people like to do here.

 

DBT is science. Just BT is science. You have a control group and an experimental group and you take measurements and then state your findings... nothing mind blowing or groundbreaking here just a basic experiment.

Yes I agree 100%.

I think that actually performing good DBT requires a group of people. I know that there are these hi fi clubs etc. and it could be that they are suitable bodies to do this.

Some components are more easy to test than others. Interconnects are surely the easiest. Headphone cables might present difficulties because it is hard to conceal them from the listener and there are even issues with weight and suchlike.

Anyway I am in Hove in the UK and very happy to participate or be involved in well organised and controlled blind ABX tests in my area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin 

The magic power of "Find" tell me that neither "dbt" nor "blind" appear anywhere in the TOS.

 

Of course there's probably a line in there somewhere that says they can do whatever they want so its all moot anyway, as rules are subject to change at any moment for any reason, without consistency or fairness.  So far IME, the mods seem to be relatively fair and only slightly heavy handed by the standards of some other boards.

 

I've said before in this thread that because this thread is privately owned, they do have the right to do whatever they want with it.  Since I like this place and want it to last, I would advise them to keep it as free as possible.  Its the best way to promote knowledge, and that's what people come here for.  This site's assets are the users, and they can leave at any time.

the forum sw upgrade lost the stickies - this used to float at the top of the Headphones forum:

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/227349/do-not-discuss-cable-dbt-in-this-or-other-forums#post_2772543

Well they haven't re-stickied it yet like they did with a few others.

Free Range!  Lets hurry before the barbed wire goes back up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man 

I started a thread on the DiffMaker here

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/515036/find-out-if-your-new-cable-has-made-an-audible-difference

 

It has not had many responses!

 

I totally agree with sokolov's comment that those who revel in psuedoscience reject simple blind testing?! Then, when another means of testing their claims is presented to them, with the DiffMaker, it is ignored. It does indeed beggar belief.

I tried all of the DiffMaker tests the other night......  never heard the marching band.  It  must have been dubbed in at around -40 db.

I could hear the difference between 128kbps and WAV.  The difference btn 256kbps and WAV  was almost undetectable, except at very high volumes and even then it was only slight.

I wonder if we need blind testing any more.  This little tool extracts the difference between two sources and lets you hear it.  There is no argument about testing protocols.  There is either a difference, as there was with 128 Vs WAV or there is practically none, like with 256 Vs WAV.     Hearing is believing, right? <

Maybe we can make our point this way...... without DBT.   

Maybe it just needs more publicity..... 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by p a t r i c k 

Yes I agree 100%.

 

I think that actually performing good DBT requires a group of people. I know that there are these hi fi clubs etc. and it could be that they are suitable bodies to do this.

 

Some components are more easy to test than others. Interconnects are surely the easiest. Headphone cables might present difficulties because it is hard to conceal them from the listener and there are even issues with weight and suchlike.

 

Anyway I am in Hove in the UK and very happy to participate or be involved in well organised and controlled blind ABX tests in my area.

 

 

Have you tried the DiffMaker yet?  Give it a shot.  You don't need anyone else, you don't have to set up a DBT and the results can be recorded and saved.


And talking about the DiffMaker is not banned anywhere.

It's good, but not quite perfect.  While those tiny differences may not individually noticeable themselves, they are likely to contribute to other things like transparency and soundstaging.  I doubt it would amount to much, and if you can't ABX them the point is moot, but that's the escape hatch I would use if I was a "pro-cabler".

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin 

It's good, but not quite perfect.  While those tiny differences may not individually noticeable themselves, they are likely to contribute to other things like transparency and soundstaging.  I doubt it would amount to much, and if you can't ABX them the point is moot, but that's the escape hatch I would use if I was a "pro-cabler".

I suppose nothing is perfect, but it will show if there is a difference or not.  It can be argued later how significant that difference is...  check out the green CD edge marker test.  No difference at all. 

USG

Vendors selling the cables that fail to differentiate from stock ones stand to lose everything from DBT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 

I just don't see why everything is so charged. With research and studying both sides only stand to gain, not lose in the end.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krav 

Vendors selling the cables that fail to differentiate from stock ones stand to lose everything from DBT.

 

I think he meant all the consumers stand to gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin 

I think he meant all the consumers stand to gain.

Exactly.

Plus, with the crazy wording and outlandish claims, it is clear many cable companies don't even take themselves seriously. They profit off people who have too much money to burn, and are quite content to fuel their lust.

How many startup companies have we seen that claim to go toe to toe with the giants, using special techniques, but for a fraction of the price. We think, great 120 instead of 500$... damn thats good. Except you still paid like 6x the value of the supplies. So, you did save money, but you are still paying out the ***.

I was half tempted to start a company myself to be brutally honest, but I am too proud to stoop that low. It would be easy money though...

I meant that it appears to me that there could be plenty of vendors and intermediaries not identifying themselves as such in every post.

As far as I know, member accounts here are not linked to any verifiable ids. How do you know that a particular cable proponent is not a shill or sock puppet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill)? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin 

I think he meant all the consumers stand to gain.

Sorry to disappoint you, but research shows that crime doesn't pay, on average. True, outstanding profits are possible, but risks are outstanding too.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 

I was half tempted to start a company myself to be brutally honest, but I am too proud to stoop that low. It would be easy money though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy 

 

I tried all of the DiffMaker tests the other night......  never heard the marching band.  It  must have been dubbed in at around -40 db.

 

I could hear the difference between 128kbps and WAV.  The difference btn 256kbps and WAV  was almost undetectable, except at very high volumes and even then it was only slight.

 

I wonder if we need blind testing any more.  This little tool extracts the difference between two sources and lets you hear it.  There is no argument about testing protocols.  There is either a difference, as there was with 128 Vs WAV or there is practically none, like with 256 Vs WAV.     Hearing is believing, right? <

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Have you tried the DiffMaker yet?  Give it a shot.  You don't need anyone else, you don't have to set up a DBT and the results can be recorded and saved.


And talking about the DiffMaker is not banned anywhere.

I have been testing Audio Diffmaker since it came out about 5 years back. When I saw it I was very excited about it, however on several systems and with several versions I have had issues with it such as diffmaker finding differences between two identical copies of the same file, this appears to be related to the alignment routine as being out by even one sample can make a huge difference. I have not tested the latest version, but I will do so when I have a mo.

One alternative is to have the two test files invert one and add it to the other in CEP or similar this will also leave a difference file, with this route you have to do the alignment and trimming manually though, but this,  while tedious is not rocket science...
 

Lets find out!  A thread on audio diffmaker has been posted on the cables, tweaks etc DBT free part of the forum.

Originally Posted by upstateguy 

I wonder if we need blind testing any more.  This little tool extracts the difference between two sources and lets you hear it.

Yes, but you still need to hear the differences in context to tell if they're actually audible or not. If you add a noise artifact at -85 dB you could hear it in isolation with the volume cranked. But not when loud pop music is playing at the same time.

--Ethan