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Are Shure SE535's No longer top tier / high end IEMs? - Page 9

post #121 of 149

I take it you still dont have those sensorcoms Mr Shane?

post #122 of 149

JoeyRusso - Speaking from my own experience, it takes me very little time to know if I like a phone or not. However, within the SM3 thread people have been claiming that the sound of the phone changes over a period of many hours, and that your initial impression of it is bound to change. As I'm not a believer in burn-in affecting balanced armature phones, I half-seriously suggested that the SM3 appears to require considerable "brain burn-in" or acclimation based on what I've been reading. What's interesting is the number of people who are reporting that this is what they are experiencing with that particular phone. I'm rather sceptical that the sound signature of a balanced armature phone changes at all, let alone as significantly and over such a prolonged period as people are describing in the SM3 thread.


Edited by iponderous - 8/13/10 at 9:20am
post #123 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy71 View Post

I take it you still dont have those sensorcoms Mr Shane?


No Sir, I do not. That's because the kind man who sent them to me decided to post them via the Titanic.

Should be floating up on the beach any day now... come on jet-stream!!

 

But you'll notice I haven't FS'd them either.

 

shane
 

post #124 of 149

Don't worry - I gave Kate Winslett explicit instructions on where to keep them safe for you....
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shane55 View Post




No Sir, I do not. That's because the kind man who sent them to me decided to post them via the Titanic.

Should be floating up on the beach any day now... come on jet-stream!!

 

But you'll notice I haven't FS'd them either.

 

shane
 

post #125 of 149



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iponderous View Post

JoeyRusso - Speaking from my own experience, it takes me very little time to know if I like a phone or not. However, within the SM3 thread people have been claiming that the sound of the phone changes over a period of many hours, and that your initial impression of it is bound to change. As I'm not a believer in burn-in affecting balanced armature phones, I half-seriously suggested that the SM3 appears to require considerable "brain burn-in" or acclimation based on what I've been reading. What's interesting is the number of people who are reporting that this is what they are experiencing with that particular phone. I'm rather sceptical that the sound signature of a balanced armature phone changes at all, let alone as significantly and over such a prolonged period as people are describing in the SM3 thread.


Mr. Ponderous.

Without derailing this thread too much...

I have certain test tracks that I know very well, that I have used for many years. When testing HP's or IEM's or speakers (or really anything relating to sound reproduction), I put these on and actively listen for certain bits that tell me whether or not the new variable is capable of reproducing it. These can be background noise, a squeeky piano bench, the clicking of the oboe's fingering mechanisms, the violinist's breath... many things that have absolutely nothing to do with the music, per se, nor whether or not I like the general tonality.

 

It's very simple really. I can hear these things or I can not. If I put on a brand new set of IEM's, with a particular tip, inserted properly for the best seal possible and can not hear a particular sound when brand new, but one week later (same tip, source, insertion, etc.) the sound appears as if out of the darkness, then it shows me that the driver has changed. It's not a variable in my hearing because I play these tracks over and again, and once a particular sound appears, it never recesses back into the blackness.

 

In the instances described above, I'm not geting used to the sonic signature of an IEM. It is changing and reproducing sounds it did not when new.

 

The other discussion... brain burn-in is psychoacoustics, which like $h1t, does happen. But that's not what I am talking about when I discuss break-in (though tonal changes can certainly be either). 

 

shane
 


Edited by shane55 - 8/13/10 at 9:39am
post #126 of 149

^ shane55, I've never experienced that with any headphone or earphone that I have owned. And for every person who says that they have there is another who says that they have not. The debate over the existence of burn-in will continue to rage throughout these forum threads until it is proven or debunked. You and I won't achieve either of those outcomes here. I don't think that we've derailed the thread too much.

post #127 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by iponderous View Post

JoeyRusso - Speaking from my own experience, it takes me very little time to know if I like a phone or not. However, within the SM3 thread people have been claiming that the sound of the phone changes over a period of many hours, and that your initial impression of it is bound to change. As I'm not a believer in burn-in affecting balanced armature phones, I half-seriously suggested that the SM3 appears to require considerable "brain burn-in" or acclimation based on what I've been reading. What's interesting is the number of people who are reporting that this is what they are experiencing with that particular phone. I'm rather sceptical that the sound signature of a balanced armature phone changes at all, let alone as significantly and over such a prolonged period as people are describing in the SM3 thread.


I agree, that's why I had the disclaimer on my first post.. I found instant love for my Klipsch, Grados and my Copper's. The others, which required acclimation, have all been sent off to new ears.  It's not that I didn't appreciate the others, they just didn't suit my preferences.  It's like buying a new pair of shoes.  They should feel great when you first put them on, conform to your foot and only get better from break in.  They shouldn't feel too loose or too tight in any one area.  I don't care what style the cool kids are wearing, if they don't fit comfortably right out of the box, I'm not buying them.
 

post #128 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by iponderous View Post

^ shane55, I've never experienced that with any headphone or earphone that I have owned. And for every person who says that they have there is another who says that they have not. The debate over the existence of burn-in will continue to rage throughout these forum threads until it is proven or debunked. You and I won't achieve either of those outcomes here. I don't think that we've derailed the thread too much.


Sir iponderous. Perhaps that say's more than you intended...

 

kwkarth works for Monster (I believe he helped design the Turbine Coppers and is an engineer there... or something), anyway, here's a couple quotes from him:

 

"The purpose of "burnin" is to flex the diaphragm principally.  The diaphragm does not know or care what you play.  Since the purpose is to get things moving, the best way to do that is to play relatively high amplitude low frequency tones.  White noise and pink noise are good for discerning FR anomalies of a piece of gear, but not any more effective at "burnin" than music, and maybe not even as effective, depending upon the music you use  (bass-wise)"

 

"Sure, just keep in mind that I'm not saying all devices benefit from break-in, but in the case of the MTPCu, I believe I personally have noticed an improvement after break-in."

 

My point is that professionals (and I have read much that discusses and references it) know break-in is a phenomenon that exists. There are a lot of things that I have not had first-hand experiencew with, but I trust the professionals who 'verify' (through observation, or testing, or measurements) that something exists (like atoms)... and if it logically makes sense, I'll go that distance and believe them.

 

There may be reasons you have never experienced it. I can't begin to know or surmise, but the 'why' is irrelivant. Your not experiencing something does not negate it's existence. I do not believe... especially in my case... that break-in of mechanical devices is fantasy or imagination or mass hysteria. I experience it on a daily basis with machinery that being a mechanical device will set with time, or loosen with time or seize up with time. Logically it makes sense to me, and I would hope it would to you as well, regardless of your lack of experience with it here.

 

Part two, and forgive me for going on... but a sincere question for you.

If I can not hear something (like a little 'click' in a recording) when a device is new, but later can hear it... how would you explain that? I know that click, I'm listening for that click, but it's just not there. After 24 hours of time (off-head), the click is suddenly apparent, or gradually becomes apparent... what do you think is going on there? Do you think something is playing tricks with my hearing or my mind?

 

And I'm asking this seriously. If the diaphram is not changing, what do you think is going on here?

 

Cheers

 

shane
 


Edited by shane55 - 8/13/10 at 10:23am
post #129 of 149

 

Think I'd have to agree with Shan55.

My very first pair of IEMs were the Shure E4Cs. I liked them a lot so when the SE530s came out, I got a pair right away and to my astonishment, they sounded so bad! There were hardly any details especially in the high frequencies. The most obvious thing I noticed back then was that the 'airy' quality in James Morrison's voice in 'Undiscovered' was completely lacking when listening through my new SE530s. Even though I was disappointed, after spending $400+ on a pair of IEMs, thought I'd use them anyway as I've already given my E4Cs to my girlfriend. And as by miracle, the sound did improve, in fact, after a few months of using them, all the missing details were there, including James Morrison's 'airy' voice. Then later on, I was told that the SE530s need burning in for at least 100 hours or so, therefore, I can only relate my experience to the effect of burning-in. I guess it makes a lot of sense, since studio monitors and speakers need burning-in, so why not earphones or headphones? Since then, I'd just routinely burn-in my new phones for at least 150 hours. Whether they actually need burning-in doesn't really matter to me, since it wouldn't do them any harm anyway, but at least I wouldn't get a false disappointment again.

post #130 of 149

 

With respect shane55, none of this is proven; it's all conjecture. However, I do find the notion of burn-in more plausible for dynamic driver phones (which is what kwkarth was referring to) than balanced armature earphones. kwkarth's opinion, which is a very knowledgeable one is still no more than that, and it does not equate to proof of the existence of burn-in.

 

Dynamic drivers do flex but they are made to, whereas balanced armatures don't. Jerry Harvey, the balanced armature earphone guru has suggested that if burn-in does occur at all in balanced armature phones, it would take place in the crossover network over a period of the first hour or so. After that time the burn-in process would be complete and the sound signature would not change.

 

Yet we have some Head-Fiers claiming that their balanced armature phones have been burning-in for hours, even days and that they continue to hear changes in its sound. I very much doubt that the sound signature of the phone is changing, but I have little doubt that these people sincerely believe that it is and they are mistaken in their belief. I find it far more likely that it is their auditory perception, and their memory of it, that is subject to change.

 

As far as my own experience goes, I have spent many hours critically listening to and assessing the performance of my phones. The fact that I have not noticed the phenomenon referred to as burn-in, does not mean that I have defective hearing or an inability to detect audible changes should they occur. It is just as plausible to suggest that the sound of the phones simply has not changed and that this phenomenon is a myth.

 

I am not the only person here at Head-Fi who has not detected any discernible change in the way their phones sound over time. You will find any number of very experienced and knowledgeable Head-Fiers who do not believe in burn-in, based on their own experience and the paucity of verifiable evidence to support it. You are a believer in burn-in based on your own experience and you accept the anecdotal evidence of others who share your view, but that doesn't make it so. 

 

I can tell that you believe you are right about this and I respect your right to believe, but I do not share your belief, nor do I think that you are right. I find the idea of psycho-acoustic burn-in and unreliable auditory memory to be more plausible explanations for the changes that we think we perceive in the sound of a phone.

 

Yes, mechanical devices can loosen up over time and eventually wear out. But we are not talking about a clock mechanism or a crankshaft. There is no evidence to suggest that balanced armatures are susceptible to this kind of "loosening up". I suspect that it's more likely that the cause for significant change in a balanced armature earphone's performance over time is mishandling by its owner, and wear and tear to the cables.

 

Our sensory perception is subject to change and of course deterioration as we age. The way we hear sound can be affected by numerous variables, including the unsavoury one of ear wax build up, which increases as a result of using ear plugs and ear tips. Apart from build up, the position of the ear wax can be shifted due to the insertion of ear tips, which will alter the way we hear.

 

And are you absolutely sure that the ear tip you insert in each of your ears goes in to exactly the same depth every time? Is there no possibility for the slightest deviation, which in turn might affect how you are hearing the sound coming from your earphones?

 

There are just too many variables that are not being accounted for by those who claim that the changes they are noticing in the sound coming from their phones is attributable to the notion of burn-in.  


Edited by iponderous - 8/13/10 at 8:49pm
post #131 of 149

anighog.gif

post #132 of 149

^ Yep. Diggin' a hole. Let the derailing of this thread end right here, right now.

post #133 of 149

I own the new Shure 535's (lucky enough to have won them in the Canjam raffle), and I will

definitely say that they have not changed their position in the pecking order). Along with the 

improved removable cable and memory wire, they are a step above my pair of E500's.

I don't know if the inners have also been reconfigured, but I am quite happy with the sound.

 

The price structuring is a different story, but it is what is. If it's not what you want to pay,

as always, that's entirely your decision.

post #134 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

 

Overall, the SM3 is warm, sonorous, somewhat dull (tonally) but fun. If you like your bass, this is the place to find it. They remind me of the M50 somewhat, but with slightly more recessed upper-mids.

 

In some ways they remind me of the D5000, but with more recessed mids.

 

 


Oh I was thinking about SM3 before grab the SE535. Glad I went for the Shure.

 

My LCD-2 will handle the bass just perfectly fine for me at home so SE535 don't have to take that job. As long as SE535 bass is not one-note and having mid-bass hump, I'm contented biggrin.gif

post #135 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyHoney View Post




Oh I was thinking about SM3 before grab the SE535. Glad I went for the Shure.

 

My LCD-2 will handle the bass just perfectly fine for me at home so SE535 don't have to take that job. As long as SE535 bass is not one-note and having mid-bass hump, I'm contented biggrin.gif


Funny, the FR graphs of the LCD-2s and SE535s look very similar under 1kHz....straight ruler to 10Hz. As balanced as it gets.

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