Are Shure SE535's No longer top tier / high end IEMs? - Page 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 

The mid range alone keeps the E5** relevant and competitive. Just as Spyro pointed out, the music is in the mid range, and Shure gets it right. 

Amen to that..  recessed mids can ruin music.. it's like eating a sandwich with very little substance between the bread.  Yeah, it'll get the job done, but it's more satisfying when it's layered properly. 

 

Much much much better...  just not $700 better.  That isn't to say that I'm not totally 100% happy and satisfied with my JH16s, because I am.  Great company.  Great product.  Wish it was cheaper so I could consider the jh-3a.  
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by midnightwalker 

Shure is good but Jh16 is better huh :D

 

Yes, the SE535 is mid-centric but it has "space" which is tricky to accomplish IMHO.  UM2, UM3X, GR8 are all mid centric but it has a tendency to close things inward.  The SE535 pushes the presentation forward but still provides a very decent soundstage depth.  That's the magic of it.  Throw in the improved treble and you have an almost perfect IEM!  If there was one single area to improve upon it would be a more vertical soundstage but you are starting to split hairs here and get real picky.  I love the SE535 and will never sell it.  The W3 will go first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iponderous 

^ It appears that the SM3 might require more "brain burn-in" than most. It was actually dfkt's compelling review of the SM3 that reignited my interest in it, having decided that it probably wasn't for me.

im wondering about this statement,

does that mean.. there is something not right with sm3 that people have to tune their brain to accept that the sound is correct before able to enjoy them?

wouldnt that mean, after getting used to sm3.. everything else would sound wrong?

what im getting here is...

i have yet went to any live performance that sounds soo different that i would have to spent sometime to get used to it before able to enjoy it.... which would mean i need to go see a it twice, and only able to enjoy it on the second visit.

Glad I am not the only one that finds a flaw in that statement.  I don't dispute that the brain can adjust and allow it to perceive a good or natural sound.  What I don't get is why you would want that.  Everything else would sound off then unless you match all your other equipment to that sound which would be an expensive venture for anyone that has a lot of money invested in home and car audio equipment.  I suppose it would be fine for anyone that listens almost exclusively to headphones and doesn't go to many live performances.  Maybe I am in the minority in that aspect, since this forum is dedicated to headphones.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaEMoNteNTAcLe 

im wondering about this statement,

does that mean.. there is something not right with sm3 that people have to tune their brain to accept that the sound is correct before able to enjoy them?

wouldnt that mean, after getting used to sm3.. everything else would sound wrong?

 

what im getting here is...

i have yet went to any live performance that sounds soo different that i would have to spent sometime to get used to it before able to enjoy it.... which would mean i need to go see a it twice, and only able to enjoy it on the second visit.

I find acclimation valid but not to this extreme. If something is close enough, you'll get there in about a song or 2 each time you listen but the long term brain burn in doesn't work unless it's the only thing you listen to and come to accept something that isn't natural as such. That's more about expectations than it is about your ear equalizing.

[Also being posted in the SE535 v. SM3 thread]

I put the SM3 through music break-in for almost 48 hours (jumping in a couple times to test progress), and if it needs any more, the changes would be very minimal. The sound actually changed a lot within the first 24 hours, but then not so much afterward. I did some more testing this morning to music and test tones. The biggest area of change occurred in the lower highs, they became much more apparent and less recessed. The overwhelming bass calmed down quite a bit and became very nice... though still just a bit over-emphasized for my taste.

For me, the negative issue with the SM3 is the recessed upper-mids. There is a dip from about 1khz to about 8khz, with the recess bottoming out at about 5khz. This causes a slightly 'veiled' or dark sound to these cans. Somewhat muted and muffled in overall tone, with sparkling extended highs (well past 13khz) and mighty bass (strong through 20hz !). There also appears to be a hump at about 300hz. It's not as prominent as the recession at 5khz, but adds to the prominence of the upper bass. It's an odd mix.

In comparison to the SE535, the SM3 fails where the 535 excels and vice-versa. The SE535 is clear, clean and open. The SM3 is closed and a bit claustrophobic. The SM3 has recessed upper-mids, where the SE535 has  them in spades: accentuated and articulate. The SE535 has a lack of bass in the way the DT880/600 has: It's there, but not prominent. It's extended, but not pronounced. The SM3 kicks the bass in your face. The SE535 lacks the warmth of the lowest mids, upper bass and gives it a somewhat thin feel. 

Overall, the SM3 is warm, sonorous, somewhat dull (tonally) but fun. If you like your bass, this is the place to find it. They remind me of the M50 somewhat, but with slightly more recessed upper-mids.

The SE535 is clean, open, and spacious. Instruments are articulated with amazing exactness and clarity. There is no murk here, but there also is little sonority. 

These are both great IEM's. Taste in music styles has nothing to do with which one of these you might purchase, but how you like to hear that music will be everything. For example, some of the music I listened to (Classical, bluegrass, rock, jazz, etc.) sounded great with the SM3. Downright gorgeous. But some of all these types sounded like crap. The exact same thing is true of the SE535, but almost diametrically opposite.

So if you like the overall sound of all your music to have a certain warmth, or if you are purchasing the SM3 because you want your Classical music to be relaxing, rich and mellow... these are your IEM's. If you like your Classical (rock, jazz, etc) to have a lively sparkle with forward mids, the SE535 is your man. For rock and other high energy music, the SM3's will give you a thumping power that the SE535's just can't. That added to the sparkle on top can add to the 'fun' factor of these. In some ways they remind me of the D5000, but with more recessed mids.

More time will yield more listening. I had thought I'd be putting the SM3 on the FS thread today, but between the break-in and 'brain burn-in' mentioned above (not really psychoacoustics because it's not the sound that is changing after break-in, but my appreciation for it), I may have developed a liking and appreciation for their sound. I want to hold on to these at least until my DBA-02's come in so I can compare them directly.

Cheers

shane

Quote:

Originally Posted by shane55 

[Also being posted in the SE535 v. SM3 thread]

 

In comparison to the SE535, the SM3 fails where the 535 excels and vice-versa. The SE535 is clear, clean and open. The SM3 is closed and a bit claustrophobic. The SM3 has recessed upper-mids, where the SE535 has  them in spades: accentuated and articulate. The SE535 has a lack of bass in the way the DT880/600 has: It's there, but not prominent. It's extended, but not pronounced. The SM3 kicks the bass in your face. The SE535 lacks the warmth of the lowest mids, upper bass and gives it a somewhat thin feel. 

 

Overall, the SM3 is warm, sonorous, somewhat dull (tonally) but fun. If you like your bass, this is the place to find it. They remind me of the M50 somewhat, but with slightly more recessed upper-mids.

The SE535 is clean, open, and spacious. Instruments are articulated with amazing exactness and clarity. There is no murk here, but there also is little sonority. 

 

 

 

Great thoughts Shane and very well stated. It does sum up what I thought of the SM3s during my audition of them. I found the bass too much to be considered balanced (it was great though and I do appreciate powerful bass...I do own the W3s and D7000s). I'm not saying that the SM3's have boomy bass here, just more than what I consider neutral. As well, I found that the mids on the SE535s are still tops and now with the improved treble, they are very special IEMs indeed.

^ dip from 1khz to 8khz?

that is reallly killing female vocals and pianos...

blergh..

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaEMoNteNTAcLe 

^ dip from 1khz to 8khz?

that is reallly killing female vocals and pianos...

blergh..

Yes. This is where it is most apparent. Vocals in general, sax, piano. These really work for trance, instrumental rock, etc.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacedonianHero 

Great thoughts Shane and very well stated. It does sum up what I thought of the SM3s during my audition of them. I found the bass too much to be considered balanced (it was great though and I do appreciate powerful bass...I do own the W3s and D7000s). I'm not saying that the SM3's have boomy bass here, just more than what I consider neutral. As well, I found that the mids on the SE535s are still tops and now with the improved treble, they are very special IEMs indeed.

Indeed. That's why we all have our D7000's or M50's or whatever... for those times when we crave that solid bass. No, the SM3 is not what I would consider neutral, neither was my D5000... and I LOVED them! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaEMoNteNTAcLe 

im wondering about this statement,

does that mean.. there is something not right with sm3 that people have to tune their brain to accept that the sound is correct before able to enjoy them?

wouldnt that mean, after getting used to sm3.. everything else would sound wrong?

 

what im getting here is...

i have yet went to any live performance that sounds soo different that i would have to spent sometime to get used to it before able to enjoy it.... which would mean i need to go see a it twice, and only able to enjoy it on the second visit.

If you're familiar with the SM3 thread, you will notice that a number of people have commented on how it took several hours for them to acclimate to the sound signature.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjb 

Glad I am not the only one that finds a flaw in that statement.  I don't dispute that the brain can adjust and allow it to perceive a good or natural sound.  What I don't get is why you would want that.  Everything else would sound off then unless you match all your other equipment to that sound which would be an expensive venture for anyone that has a lot of money invested in home and car audio equipment.  I suppose it would be fine for anyone that listens almost exclusively to headphones and doesn't go to many live performances.  Maybe I am in the minority in that aspect, since this forum is dedicated to headphones.

 

 

With respect, you've misinterpreted my post. Please see my previous response, which will provide you with some context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodvibes 

I find acclimation valid but not to this extreme. If something is close enough, you'll get there in about a song or 2 each time you listen but the long term brain burn in doesn't work unless it's the only thing you listen to and come to accept something that isn't natural as such. That's more about expectations than it is about your ear equalizing.

If you have been following the SM3 thread, you will see that numerous people have commented on how long it has taken them to acclimate to its sound signature. The number of hours required for them to begin to "appreciate" the SM3's presentation is surprising.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodvibes 

I find acclimation valid but not to this extreme. If something is close enough, you'll get there in about a song or 2 each time you listen but the long term brain burn in doesn't work unless it's the only thing you listen to and come to accept something that isn't natural as such. That's more about expectations than it is about your ear equalizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iponderous 

 

If you have been following the SM3 thread, you will see that numerous people have commented on how long it has taken them to acclimate to its sound signature. The number of hours required for them to begin to "appreciate" the SM3's presentation is surprising.
 

I agree to an extent, physical burn-in aside, it shouldn't take more then a few songs to know if you like what you hear.  However, when I bought my IE8's my first impression was that they were too veiled and overly warm compared to the IE7's and the Klipsch S4's.  I had to "train" my brain to hear the details.  I had to acquire them, they were there just below the surface.  They were pleasant to listen through, but I always felt that something was missing.  To go from the IE8's to a pair of Grado's was an awakening.  The Grado's are in your face with details in the mids and highs. I was hooked.  The 8's went to a new home and in their place were my 325i's and the ER-4P's.  Again, the ER-4P's smack you with details, but they lack the thump of the 7's, 8's and the S4's, which I loved.  It took me some time to acclimate to the Ety's bass.  It's there, but it's different, I had to adjust to hear it, so off they went to a new home.  So it may be a question of finding the right tip, a better seal or in fact acclimating to their sound, whether that's good or bad is up to the owner. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyRusso 

I agree to an extent, physical burn-in aside, it shouldn't take more then a few songs to know if you like what you hear.  However, when I bought my IE8's my first impression was that they were too veiled and overly warm compared to the IE7's and the Klipsch S4's.  I had to "train" my brain to hear the details.  I had to acquire them, they were there just below the surface.  They were pleasant to listen through, but I always felt that something was missing.  To go from the IE8's to a pair of Grado's was an awakening.  The Grado's are in your face with details in the mids and highs. I was hooked.  The 8's went to a new home and in their place were my 325i's and the ER-4P's.  Again, the ER-4P's smack you with details, but they lack the thump of the 7's, 8's and the S4's, which I loved.  It took me some time to acclimate to the Ety's bass.  It's there, but it's different, I had to adjust to hear it, so off they went to a new home.  So it may be a question of finding the right tip, a better seal or in fact acclimating to their sound, whether that's good or bad is up to the owner. 

 

Makes perfect sense.

I have to acclimate my listening (not hearing) to the SE535 to deal with the slightly recessed lower mids and bass. They are all there, but not prominent, so my listening has to be directed more towards attention in that area.

With the SM3's, try as I might, after break-in plateau, I still can not listen appropriately well enough to capture the lost upper-mids and highs. I actually make a conscious effort and it's still not coming through for me.

It's one thing to semi-consciously change your listening to accommodate a recessed tonality, it's another thing altogether if you have to actively seek a particular sound. I'd rather listen passively and let the sound be 'all there'.

shane