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HiFace, sensitive information - Page 5

post #61 of 425


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post



Would tak a hell of an ADC to measure jitter differences don't you think ?


 


..and yet people are claiming they can hear them?

If they are audible then it should be possible to measure some aspects..

I am not talking about measuring jitter with the ADC, I am talking about measuring whatever negative affects people suggest they are hearing between these two devices.

post #62 of 425
Thread Starter 

Unless we send both versions of HiFace to Stereophile for comprehensive jitter measurment tests, I am afraid home made measurments will only raise more questions than answers... 
 

Why not trust your ears... Which version do you have by the way ? small clock unit or MEC clock unit ?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post

..and yet people are claiming they can hear them?

If they are audible then it should be possible to measure some aspects..

I am not talking about measuring jitter with the ADC, I am talking about measuring whatever negative affects people suggest they are hearing between these two devices.

post #63 of 425



Can people measure the difference between a $5k WE300B and a $50 Chinese 300B ?   Home computer audio measurements are very very rudimentary.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post


 


..and yet people are claiming they can hear them?

If they are audible then it should be possible to measure some aspects..

I am not talking about measuring jitter with the ADC, I am talking about measuring whatever negative affects people suggest they are hearing between these two devices.

post #64 of 425


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

Unless we send both versions of HiFace to Stereophile for comprehensive jitter measurment tests, I am afraid home made measurments will only raise more questions than answers... 
 

Why not trust your ears... Which version do you have by the way ? small clock unit or MEC clock unit ?

 


 


Why would it raise more questions?  Connect the hiface to a DAC and connect the DAC to a ADC that can measure it within it's specifications.  Run a measurement program and if there is a difference it should show in the measurements. Atleast in theory anyway;)

My HIface is only a few months old...

post #65 of 425

I am also quite concerned as I purchased my HiFace in February and don't have any way of verifying if it is one of the "Smaller clock" models. Has anyone contacted TweekGeek.com, the US distributor about this issue?


Edited by Alexdad54 - 7/27/10 at 7:29am
post #66 of 425
Thread Starter 

I would at least ask the following: what should you actually measure in the first place and why, in which conditions on what gears, what are the specs and tolerances of the material involved, is your protocol for measurement strong and reliable... Sensible measurements should be done in controlled environment such as a lab, and by people in the business... Otherwise, at least to me, they are clueless.

 

While things could prove to be difficult to measure, even for the people at M2Tech, it should be much easier to listen to differences in an A/B comparison, at least, in my experience.

 

And this is where I blame M2Tech, for not listening to their product after changing a key component in their design and putting deliveries and schedules ahead of customer satisfaction.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post

Why would it raise more questions?  Connect the hiface to a DAC and connect the DAC to a ADC that can measure it within it's specifications.  Run a measurement program and if there is a difference it should show in the measurements. Atleast in theory anyway;)

My HIface is only a few months old...



 

You could try to play 44.1khz files and then upsample them at 48khz with Foobar SOX and find out if you can hear significant differences... If they sound fairly equal, then you should not worry too much, unless of course you received a HiFace with 2 "small clocks".

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdad54 View Post

I am also quite concerned as I purchased my HiFace in February and don't have any way of verifying if it is one of the "Smaller clock" models. Has anyone contacted TweekGeek.com, the US distributor about this issue?

post #67 of 425


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

I would at least ask the following: what should you actually measure in the first place and why, in which conditions on what gears, what are the specs and tolerances of the material involved, is your protocol for measurement strong and reliable... Sensible measurements should be done in controlled environment such as a lab, and by people in the business... Otherwise, at least to me, they are clueless.

 

While things could prove to be difficult to measure, even for the people at M2Tech, it should be much easier to listen to differences in an A/B comparison, at least, in my experience.

 

And this is where I blame M2Tech, for not listening to their product after changing a key component in their design and putting deliveries and schedules ahead of customer satisfaction.


 



 

You could try to play 44.1khz files and then upsample them at 48khz with Foobar SOX and find out if you can hear significant differences... If they sound fairly equal, then you should not worry too much, unless of course you received a HiFace with 2 "small clocks".

 


 


Measurements are measurements and they can be done accurately by people that know what they are doing in any setting unless there is outside interference.  I use RMAA and other software all the time and know the difference between proper measurement and those that are useless.  IMO, if the differences are obvious enough to be easily audible then you should be able to measure them to some extent using a DAC and a ADC.

I don't have both units or else I would have tried to measure them by now...just suggesting that you may want to try it and the differences may be easy to see in the results.

post #68 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy dan View Post

I agree that there are more jitter sensitive DACs around than the Sabre, but my ears tell me the Sabre still sounds different with each transport I've tried it with - many others have found the same. 


sure, of course, otherwise I wouldnt be wasting all this time and money looking for the perfect transport, I would have simply used the optical output of my iriver ;)

 

 

 

Quote:

Although the MCLK on the Hiface isn't directly used by the Sabre, it is still responsible for the timing of the other clocks.

 

which are then promptly reclocked and oversampled to the nth by sabre internal  MCLK. 

 

 

 

Quote:

Look forward to hearing how you test - with whatever DAC - goes.

 

 

me too, perhaps i'll actually get to make time this weekend to do this and do some actual music listening. both ackodac and my portable buffalo II dac/headamp are on the bench and just about ready to have a really good listen too. 

post #69 of 425


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

 

You could try to play 44.1khz files and then upsample them at 48khz with Foobar SOX and find out if you can hear significant differences... If they sound fairly equal, then you should not worry too much, unless of course you received a HiFace with 2 "small clocks".

 


 


shamu144, you kind of lost me here...  IF the 44.1 and upsampled 48khz files sound similar, then in theory the 2 "small clocks" are a suitable replacement to the original...?  Was your statement ironical or did I misunderstand?  If I did, my apologies...

 

On another note, I tested mine with Foobar SOX and again, I cannot tell a difference between 44.1 and 48.  I think I have the original clock in mine, jkeny confirmed it...  Looking forward to other posters' test results, especially the side by side comparison between the two clocks...


Edited by xdanny - 7/28/10 at 1:22am
post #70 of 425
Thread Starter 

If it sounds similar at 44.1khz and 48khz, it only means that the 2 clocks in the HiFace are identical. But you could have 2 original MEC oscillators or 2 small clocks in your HiFace (look at page 4 in this thread I think, you can see a DIY picture of a modded HiFace with indeed 2 small clocks).

 

The HiFace with 2 small clocks could have poor performance either at 44.1khz or 48khz, and you won't be able to hear differences...Unfortunately, I was not beeing ironical.

 

However, if you are really happy with your stock HiFace, chances are that you have the good version. As a said, I can't listen to the bad version more than 10 minutes without inducing auditive fatigue... Of course I guess if you have a very forgiving and warm system, this could be more difficult to detect, as the colorations will cover the resulting edginess/harshness in the music. This is why I also want to try the "bad" Hiface with a more forgiving system (LD mkIII and Sony CD900ST).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xdanny View Post

shamu144, you kind of lost me here...  IF the 44.1 and upsampled 48khz files sound similar, then in theory the 2 "small clocks" are a suitable replacement to the original...?  Was your statement ironical or did I misunderstand?  If I did, my apologies...

post #71 of 425

All right, thanks for the clarification, shamu...

 

I am indeed very happy with the way mine sounds and I can listen for long periods of time with no fatigue at all.  I also believe my system is fairly transparent, as bad recordings are shown for what they are.

 

Again, thanks for making it clear...

 

post #72 of 425

My 44.1 and 48 sound almost the same with the foobar test, so I don't know where that leaves me?  Two large or two small.......

 

On the other hand, jkeny posted that he didn't hear a difference between the two, so I was wondering if he meant he didn't hear a difference between the stock versions or his modded versions?

 

USG


Edited by upstateguy - 7/28/10 at 10:20am
post #73 of 425

Just FYI, I've been in touch with Michael Garner at TweekGeek.Com where I bought my HiFace in February and pointed him to this thread and asked for any info he might have. He very kindly replied immediately, stating that he hadn't been aware of this potential issue but that he has  requested clarification from Marco at M2Tech.

post #74 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdad54 View Post

Just FYI, I've been in touch with Michael Garner at TweekGeek.Com where I bought my HiFace in February and pointed him to this thread and asked for any info he might have. He very kindly replied immediately, stating that he hadn't been aware of this potential issue but that he has  requested clarification from Marco at M2Tech.


Hi Alexdad54

 

When did TweekGeek ship yours?

 

USG

post #75 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdad54 View Post

Just FYI, I've been in touch with Michael Garner at TweekGeek.Com where I bought my HiFace in February and pointed him to this thread and asked for any info he might have. He very kindly replied immediately, stating that he hadn't been aware of this potential issue but that he has  requested clarification from Marco at M2Tech.


Good job!  Looking forward to see what Marco's reply is...

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