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post #316 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

Would you explain why you expected to hear a difference?

 

My SPDIF cable is a Esoteric ED15-0.5M

 

I have nothing between the HiFace and the HeadRoom Desktop.

 

USB cable is USB 3.0 Male to Female Cable 0.5m 5ft

I don't really want to get into it - you can google it, I'm sure.

The only thing left is what Bubu1 suggests - an RF attenuator or a different SPDIF cable!

post #317 of 425

What SPDIF cable would you suggest?

 

I'll lookup the CD ripping thing.  In fact, I had already looked at discussions in the forum and it's like cables.  A lot of theoretical benefit, but no good evidence of audible benefits when ripping physically decent quality CD's.

post #318 of 425

No cable recommendation from me, just a suggestion to try something else - better & cheaper still a $12 attenuator as Bubu1 suggested.

post #319 of 425
Thread Starter 

USG, Jkeny and Aimlink, I believe this conversation on upsampling DACs and there interaction with the Hiface is indeed very interesting, but belongs to another thread, like the official Hiface thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/446375/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface/1665#post_6922635

 

Please keep this thread on topic, which is strictly related to the clock issues in the Hiface.

 

Thank you for your understanding,

post #320 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

USG, Jkeny and Aimlink, I believe this conversation on upsampling DACs and there interaction with the Hiface is indeed very interesting, but belongs to another thread, like the official Hiface thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/446375/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface/1665#post_6922635

 

Please keep this thread on topic, which is strictly related to the clock issues in the Hiface.

 

Thank you for your understanding,

 

Point taken.  Sorry for the off-road there.  We were finished anyway...
 

post #321 of 425


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebhelyesfarku View Post

I hear difference between the MBP optical out and the hiFace, the latter being brighter. Louder? Not sure.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubu1 View Post

Is it possible that the hiface is the proper level and other transports are not?  Has anyone compared other transports to optical out?


NO. It seems that the HF plays louder....... except on the optical out of a macbook, which should be investigated further.

 

I've compared the HF levels to the BCT and the onboard implementations of both my Constantine, and Stello DACs as well as a Benchmark I and all the volume levels are roughtly the same, excpet for the HF which is noticably louder.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post

Aimlink,

 

I emailed you that comment when I was away on holidays -...... Here's what I said "I suspect why you don't hear much difference between optical out & the Hiface is because of your DAC's upsampling - it will make everything sound the same & prevent the low jitter signal from the Hiface showing it's true colours - can you turn this off?"

 

<snip>

 

So all I can suggest that if optical in & SPDIF in sounds the same to you & the stock Hiface & modified Hiface sound no different to you then there is something wrong in your system! .......

 


I don't think that's exactly what aimlink said.  I'm pretty sure he said that he didn't hear any difference between his modded HF and the optical out of his macbook.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post


I hear no volume difference doesn't necessarily mean that there really isn't one.  Don't forget that this is a subjective issue that we're discussing.  I feel like I'm being held down here and that my assessment is absolute.

 

I switch back and forth in my sound preferences output from 'Digital Out' to 'M2Tech HiFace'.  


Naw, it's pretty noticeable, with the stock HF anyway.  It's not something that you would miss....  does your macbook have some kind of auto volume level control that prevents over modulation, like a "Normalize" switch?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

Would you explain why you expected to hear a difference?

 

My SPDIF cable is a Esoteric ED15-0.5M

 

I have nothing between the HiFace and the HeadRoom Desktop.

 

USB cable is USB 3.0 Male to Female Cable 0.5m 5ft

 

You gotta have something between the HF and the HR, no?    


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

What SPDIF cable would you suggest?

 

I'll lookup the CD ripping thing.  In fact, I had already looked at discussions in the forum and it's like cables.  A lot of theoretical benefit, but no good evidence of audible benefits when ripping physically decent quality CD's.


I don't think cable matter much in what we're discussing.

 

Still, jkeny's idea was a good one,  try a full boat transfer from a CD to see if it makes a difference.  It would be worth it just for you to report that you hear "no difference".

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

USG, Jkeny and Aimlink, I believe this conversation on upsampling DACs and there interaction with the Hiface is indeed very interesting, but belongs to another thread, like the official Hiface thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/446375/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface/1665#post_6922635

 

Please keep this thread on topic, which is strictly related to the clock issues in the Hiface.

 

Thank you for your understanding,


I'm sorry shamu, but I thought the thread was about all sensitive information concerning the HF.  

 

The clock issue, btw, has now become a non issue because  the e-mail that was sent to me from Tweak Geek, said that since m2tech doesn't want the HF opened,  anyone who even thinks they have a small clock can exchange it for a new one with a large clock. (and so I did)

 

Wouldn't you agree that once you get your exchange unit,  the next piece of  'sensitive information' to sort out becomes this 'upsampling' issue,  followed by the 'treble tilt' and the 'plays louder' factor?

 

USG

 



 

post #322 of 425

Now that the "clock issue" seems to have abated - it would be interesting to get the figures from GeekTweek about how many people changed their Hiface units through him? I don't know any other vendor doing this, do you? Has M2tech issued any communication about this?

 

Now you have some other "issues" but again they need some backing up to with some data to be able to be taken seriously. I have suggested on another thread that a frequency sweep playback & recording through the Hiface should reveal these "issues" when compared with a frequency sweep recording from your Thingee or whatever. 

post #323 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post

I don't think that's exactly what aimlink said.  I'm pretty sure he said that he didn't hear any difference between his modded HF and the optical out of his macbook.


I'm using an iMac, but otherwise, your statement is correct.


Naw, it's pretty noticeable, with the stock HF anyway.  It's not something that you would miss....  does your macbook have some kind of auto volume level control that prevents over modulation, like a "Normalize" switch?

Nope.  The only thing of that nature is in iTunes, and I'm sure to disable that gizmo since I have other reasons to disable it.

 

I don't think cable matter much in what we're discussing.

 

Still, jkeny's idea was a good one,  try a full boat transfer from a CD to see if it makes a difference.  It would be worth it just for you to report that you hear "no difference".

 

Ok.  I did it and no difference, as I personally expected.  

 

I'm now wondering why is it that I have to hear a difference and if not, then there's a fault somewhere?  Just wondering?  Could the HiFace not just be a piece of gear that works for some and not for others in terms of audible returns with their particular setups?  If we insist that EVERYONE is supposed to hear an improvement, then the usual wild goose chase will start and if I go through enough hassle with this stuff, I'll definitely start hearing improvements because I need to, in order to get some peace of mind.   Not that I'm not at peace with this stuff, but just reading the suggestions with genuine curiosity that this other possibility I mentioned is not being considered.  I can't promise that I'll go along with too many suggestions here.
 

I'm sorry shamu, but I thought the thread was about all sensitive information concerning the HF.  

 

Your argument seems reasonable, so I decided to chime in again. 



 

post #324 of 425

The only way to prove either way just how much the upsampling affects the HiFace and how the HiFace compares with or without upsampling would be to test the same DAC with upsampling disabled and enabled.

 

After a sited test, a blind test should be carried out as well.

 

Unfortunately, my DAC's upsampling cannot be disabled.  Anyone here with a DAC that upsamples and with the ability to disable the upsampling?  What's the experience.?

 

Anyone with a Meier Corda StageDAC?  Seems like a good one to have a go with. 

 

Are we entering a new phase of Hi-Fi where upsampling at the DAC level is taboo'd or at the minimum, made bypassable?

post #325 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

..............

 

Unfortunately, my DAC's upsampling cannot be disabled.  Anyone here with a DAC that upsamples and with the ability to disable the upsampling?  What's the experience.?

.............

 

 

aimlink,

 

For what it's worth, I did a blind test.  My dac has a button to enable upsampling if desired.  In my setup, I did hear a difference: 100 percent of the time I preferred the original, non-upsampled signal.  The upsampled signal sounded muddy, and restricted it seemed.  It wasn't a night and day difference, but one nonetheless.  Hope this helps...
 

post #326 of 425

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

The only way to prove either way just how much the upsampling affects the HiFace and how the HiFace compares with or without upsampling would be to test the same DAC with upsampling disabled and enabled.

 

After a sited test, a blind test should be carried out as well.

 

Unfortunately, my DAC's upsampling cannot be disabled.  Anyone here with a DAC that upsamples and with the ability to disable the upsampling?  What's the experience.?

 

Anyone with a Meier Corda StageDAC?  Seems like a good one to have a go with. 

 

Are we entering a new phase of Hi-Fi where upsampling at the DAC level is taboo'd or at the minimum, made bypassable?

 

I don't think so. 

 

Benchmark, North Star, Lavry11.... how about Bel Canto ?.....  DacMagic, & your Headroom Desktop.... all see to have undefeatable upsampling. They are all pretty expensive mid-fi DACs.

 

I think your testing protocol is pretty good, but a little on the complicated side because the DAC I bought the HiFace for has undefeatable upsampling like yours.

 

A start might be to obtain another transport like the BCT or the Trends UD-10 with battery pack and compare it sighted to the HiFace to see if differences are heard.  It they are we should note what they might be.

 

The biggest difference was the loudness of the HiFace over the BCT and the usb implementations of my Constantine and Stello.  I spoke to many other people who also heard this difference.  The I read a bout it in the Legato review which I linked to in a previous post.

 

The second biggest difference was the treble tilt which many other guys also posted about too.  Some called it brightness, or sibliance or bass light, but to my ears it is both a treble tilt and bass light. 

 

Shahrose said his modded unit wasn't bright like a stock unit, so there is good reason to believe that you might not hear brightness, but not to hear any difference between optical out of the MB and the battery operated USB HiFace mod is quite disturbing.  I'm sure there is a reason for it, we just don't know what it is yet.

 

 

USG

post #327 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by xdanny View Post

aimlink,

 

For what it's worth, I did a blind test.  My dac has a button to enable upsampling if desired.  In my setup, I did hear a difference: 100 percent of the time I preferred the original, non-upsampled signal.  The upsampled signal sounded muddy, and restricted it seemed.  It wasn't a night and day difference, but one nonetheless.  Hope this helps...
 

 

Three questions:

 

1- I know you said it wasn't night and day, but how subtle was it?

 

2- Did you notice if the HiFace played louder than your other transports?

 

3- In your opinion what is the difference between the upsampled HiFace sound and an upsampled sound from a transport other than the HiFace?  Does an upsampled, non-HiFace transport have the same muddy and restricted sound as the upsampled HiFace?

 

USG

post #328 of 425


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post



 

Three questions:

 

1- I know you said it wasn't night and day, but how subtle was it?

 

2- Did you notice if the HiFace played louder than your other transports?

 

3- In your opinion what is the difference between the upsampled HiFace sound and an upsampled sound from a transport other than the HiFace?  Does an upsampled, non-HiFace transport have the same muddy and restricted sound as the upsampled HiFace?

 

USG

 

Hi USG,


 

1. Without using big audiophile words, it sounded a bit restricted, congested with a narrow soundstage. 

 

2. The loudness issue came about after I did all those blind tests.  I am really interested in it and will perform another blind test against spdif out of my sound card directly into the dac and against dvd player directly into the dac.  I will report as soon as I have some results.  I wonder if I should remove the attenuators before the test??  I would also like to measure it because as a song goes high or low the volume constantly changes - and this is hella hard to gauge.  I'm thinking the right way is to use some pink noise and measure that with a calibrated mic.  I ordered one to run REW for my room, so maybe I can use it to measure the loudness??

 

3. The same.  Before the hiface, I was going spdif coax out of a realtek soundcard into the dac.  I ALWAYS preferred the non - upsampled version, be it dac or the SOX resampler.  Let me add that the sound was pretty darn good straight out the soundcard, I don't think the dac had much to work with in terms of improving it. 


Edited by xdanny - 9/13/10 at 8:19pm
post #329 of 425

Been there already, HiFace is a definite step up from Trends. Not sure what is the agenda about, I have Chord DAC64 that supposed to have the most jitter immune architecture with internal buffer, but I can clearly tell that hiface brought it up to completely different level. I am using two early production units from before mid Dec 2009, so I am pretty sure that they have bigger clocks. Never found them treble tilted or bright, still want to test out attenuators to see if anything can be found there, suspect that attenuator is a band-aid for worse sounding smaller clocks as IMHO there is nothing to fix with stock unit.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post

 


 


A start might be to obtain another transport like the BCT or the Trends UD-10 with battery pack and compare it sighted to the HiFace to see if differences are heard.  It they are we should note what they might be.

 

post #330 of 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT View Post
 


Hi Andrew

 

Let me ask you one question.  Did you notice that your HiFace plays louder than your Trends?

 

USG

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