Final questions before purchasing SA6 - Page 3

I agree with Pianist on this one. With the law of diminishing returns and the CK10 being $100 more than the RE0, appreciating sound characteristic differences becomes impossible unless you own both IEMs. Why not spend less for your first IEM and enjoy them, and then look to upgrade later? That way, you will be able to spot key differences and benefits of a more expensive IEM that performs better than your previous IEM. Upgrading slowly really allows you to understand your own taste and what you want in an IEM--and most importantly, to appreciate the sonic differences between a more expensive IEM compared to cheaper IEM, in my opinion.

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I disagree for two reasons. You haven't heard the CK10 and you rate RE0 much higher than most people around here. I find them an amazing value don't get me wrong but I think it is just a small step behind the CK10. The RE0 is no doubt the better purchase in terms of value but I consider the CK10 the superior phone. It also has much better build than the RE0 which is also something to consider when buying an earphone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawrster 

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I disagree for two reasons. You haven't heard the CK10 and you rate RE0 much higher than most people around here. I find them an amazing value don't get me wrong but I think it is just a small step behind the CK10. The RE0 is no doubt the better purchase in terms of value but I consider the CK10 the superior phone. It also has much better build than the RE0 which is also something to consider when buying an earphone.

Agreed, if (when) you buy a half price iem and it breaks, then you've spent the same money buying it twice as you would've spent on the better sounding, better built iem.

Solid Victory has a good point about upgrading slowly, though. It takes time to learn what you want to hear.

I didn't realize that SolidVictory posted above me. My post was directed at Pianist if it was not obvious.

Also in response if you know what you want spending money on a CK10 would not be an issue if it is in your budget. If you have no idea what you want then I would probably go with the cheaper route and get the bang for your bucks under $100 and see which one you like since they are much cheaper to find out. You can also minimize your losses in the FS forums but you will take a bigger loss from more expensive earphones than the cheaper ones.

I say the RE0 is a ways down on the totem pole in terms of overall SQ versus the CK10.  I can only say relative to my own experiences.  I though the RE0 was holistically a good product and a very good value at $99.  I bought mine when it was at $170 and near when it first came out.  I could say I was less than impressed by it.  It was good, sure.  It tried to do a lot, and did a lot of things well.  I feel it entirely lacks in some key areas like dynamics and sound stage, and it does suffer to some extent on both the top and bottom ends.  I tried for two weeks to really like them.  I listened to over a hundred songs.  I tried them amped.  I EQed them many different ways.  I tried the foam mod (remove the stock foam inside the tube) and EQed it that way.  In the end, I did not like them.  I felt they were relatively limited for their price point.  Mind you this was my first venture into a "high end" or I should say pricey earphone.  I felt disappointed.  I traded them in for my OK1 buds before my trial period was up.  My bro owned the Denon C700, Yuin PK2, and Porta Pros at the time.  I owned the V-Moda Vibe which was my only IEM up to that point.  I bought the ER4S and PFE soon after too.  Relative to the RE0, I preferred all the other earphones I had, including the Vibe as bad as that sounds.  The RE0 simply lacked a lot of things I was looking for like dynamic breadth, energy in the note, and a sound stage with excellent location and spacing which it simply failed at.  Upon receiving both my PFE and ER4S I was overwhelmingly impressed by both and they both showed to be significantly better than anything else I've used since.  They were both impressive in their own ways.  When I got my OK1 I was again impressed.  My point is, the RE0 wasn't impressive.  I truly feel it lacks necessary traits to actually be called really good or even comparable to some of these high end products.  In my eyes, it's not even close.  I do see the value in what the RE0 does.  It has an excellent response range and is well balanced.  It offers a lot of detail and a decently natural sound.  For $99, it really is a great buy.  However, I have never felt it is at the same level as a number of these other products.  I know why people like it, and I know why it's well valued.  There are just things it can't do.  It doesn't really do anything very wrong which is valuable in its own right, but at the same time there are many things it doesn't do great which deters a bit from its potential greatness.

I had a hard time initially reviewing the RE0.  It took me a little while to separate out my personal bias from raw capability.  From a standpoint of personal preference, the RE0 was a ways from my ideal.  I had a relative dislike for them.  After a while, I reevaluated them based on raw performance, what they could do and what they could not do.  From this viewpoint, they are a good product.  They aren't flawed.  They aren't great either.  They sound weak because they lack dynamic range and body to the notes.  You get sharpness and a leading edge to the notes which gives a large sense of high detail, but there is minimal dynamics and articulation of the note.  You get a sharp lead in and then little else.  They are incapable of low bass.  The low end is limited by the driver ability to move enough air.  It doesn't respond well to EQing and distortion sets in if you try.  The foam mod gave me a view of the treble in more detail.  One thing it showed me was some of the harshness, an odd resonance, and highlighted the lack of real information on the top end.  The sensitivity was there, but what you heard wasn't real information, just noise.  I have a certain sensitivity to high frequencies.  I spent a good bit of time running a number of good tweeters in my car and have gained a relative affinity to what good high frequency reproduction sounds like.  I've also used some home audio setups that offered some well detailed highs.  High frequency quality is sort of a thorn in my side.  If it's good, I'm happy.  If it's not, I am quite annoyed by it quite quickly.  It's pretty apparent to me when the response is rough, rolls off early, or has a bit of distortion.  I pay note to things like dyanmics, articulation, body, and blending.  When the treble is good, it is accurate, detailed, and articulate.  There are some earphones that do treble well, like the Triple.Fi 10, RE252, CK10, and SE530(although slightly recessed).  There are earphones that have rough top end responses, like the ER4S or PFE which aren't inherently bad but really need powerful EQing to really shine.  There are earphones that have a blended or borderline muddy treble response like the IE8 or Custom 3 which offer a slightly too thick and too sluggish note to portray fine details.  Then there's the RE0 which is MASSIVELY touted for having some of the best highs and some of the best detail out there, and...I hate it.  Sharpness is not detail.  Articulation is detail, and the ability to articulate very high frequencies very well is a step towards great treble.  The RE0 has sharpness.  The RE0 doesn't have articulation.  Sensitivity and sounds are not alone good treble.  A coherent, accurate recreation of source information is good treble.  The RE0 really bugged me on this one, and it took a while for me to see this clearly.  The RE0 has high frequency information, sounds, "notes", things you hear as some sort of information.  However, really paying attention to what's there shows that it simply isn't actual info, at least not source material.  It is noise that sounds like information yet isn't representative of what the source info is supposed to be, like a cymbal crash that is played that doesn't sound like a cymbal but comes out like detailed "stuff."  I have a saying that I use to describe the RE0.  The RE0 is like a home audio full range driver.  It tries to play all frequencies and largely works, but it is obvious it is somewhat limited on both ends and distinctly lacks at accurately reproducing these extremes.

I know the RE-ZERO has been said to have key improvements in its main limited areas like dynamics and sound stage.  For that there is worth to look at the RE-ZERO.  I am quite impressed by the RE252 which was also a solution to people not liking the RE0, and I know Hifi Man can make a very good product.  The RE-ZERO runs some driver that's apparently a bit better than the RE0.  How it sounds, I don't know, haven't heard one yet.  There's supposed to be a RE262 coming out as well, and I think HiFi Man is making some killer products and seems to keep making better and better stuff.

I know I'm ripping on the RE0 a bit.  Frankly, it's an excellent product in its own right.  It's a great buy at $99 and represents a real value.  Most of its like is based on the fact that it doesn't really do anything bad.  It's like a reliable car that gets you from point A to point B and back again every day for 20 years and all you do to it is change oil.  It's not broken.  It does a lot of things well.  There is high value in this alone.  However, beyond this it simply doesn't compete with a lot of the higher end products out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 

I say the RE0 is a ways down on the totem pole in terms of overall SQ versus the CK10.  I can only say relative to my own experiences.  I though the RE0 was holistically a good product and a very good value at $99.  I bought mine when it was at $170 and near when it first came out.  I could say I was less than impressed by it.  It was good, sure.  It tried to do a lot, and did a lot of things well.  I feel it entirely lacks in some key areas like dynamics and sound stage, and it does suffer to some extent on both the top and bottom ends.  I tried for two weeks to really like them.  I listened to over a hundred songs.  I tried them amped.  I EQed them many different ways.  I tried the foam mod (remove the stock foam inside the tube) and EQed it that way.  In the end, I did not like them.  I felt they were relatively limited for their price point.  Mind you this was my first venture into a "high end" or I should say pricey earphone.  I felt disappointed.  I traded them in for my OK1 buds before my trial period was up.  My bro owned the Denon C700, Yuin PK2, and Porta Pros at the time.  I owned the V-Moda Vibe which was my only IEM up to that point.  I bought the ER4S and PFE soon after too.  Relative to the RE0, I preferred all the other earphones I had, including the Vibe as bad as that sounds.  The RE0 simply lacked a lot of things I was looking for like dynamic breadth, energy in the note, and a sound stage with excellent location and spacing which it simply failed at.  Upon receiving both my PFE and ER4S I was overwhelmingly impressed by both and they both showed to be significantly better than anything else I've used since.  They were both impressive in their own ways.  When I got my OK1 I was again impressed.  My point is, the RE0 wasn't impressive.  I truly feel it lacks necessary traits to actually be called really good or even comparable to some of these high end products.  In my eyes, it's not even close.  I do see the value in what the RE0 does.  It has an excellent response range and is well balanced.  It offers a lot of detail and a decently natural sound.  For $99, it really is a great buy.  However, I have never felt it is at the same level as a number of these other products.  I know why people like it, and I know why it's well valued.  There are just things it can't do.  It doesn't really do anything very wrong which is valuable in its own right, but at the same time there are many things it doesn't do great which deters a bit from its potential greatness.

 

I had a hard time initially reviewing the RE0.  It took me a little while to separate out my personal bias from raw capability.  From a standpoint of personal preference, the RE0 was a ways from my ideal.  I had a relative dislike for them.  After a while, I reevaluated them based on raw performance, what they could do and what they could not do.  From this viewpoint, they are a good product.  They aren't flawed.  They aren't great either.  They sound weak because they lack dynamic range and body to the notes.  You get sharpness and a leading edge to the notes which gives a large sense of high detail, but there is minimal dynamics and articulation of the note.  You get a sharp lead in and then little else.  They are incapable of low bass.  The low end is limited by the driver ability to move enough air.  It doesn't respond well to EQing and distortion sets in if you try.  The foam mod gave me a view of the treble in more detail.  One thing it showed me was some of the harshness, an odd resonance, and highlighted the lack of real information on the top end.  The sensitivity was there, but what you heard wasn't real information, just noise.  I have a certain sensitivity to high frequencies.  I spent a good bit of time running a number of good tweeters in my car and have gained a relative affinity to what good high frequency reproduction sounds like.  I've also used some home audio setups that offered some well detailed highs.  High frequency quality is sort of a thorn in my side.  If it's good, I'm happy.  If it's not, I am quite annoyed by it quite quickly.  It's pretty apparent to me when the response is rough, rolls off early, or has a bit of distortion.  I pay note to things like dyanmics, articulation, body, and blending.  When the treble is good, it is accurate, detailed, and articulate.  There are some earphones that do treble well, like the Triple.Fi 10, RE252, CK10, and SE530(although slightly recessed).  There are earphones that have rough top end responses, like the ER4S or PFE which aren't inherently bad but really need powerful EQing to really shine.  There are earphones that have a blended or borderline muddy treble response like the IE8 or Custom 3 which offer a slightly too thick and too sluggish note to portray fine details.  Then there's the RE0 which is MASSIVELY touted for having some of the best highs and some of the best detail out there, and...I hate it.  Sharpness is not detail.  Articulation is detail, and the ability to articulate very high frequencies very well is a step towards great treble.  The RE0 has sharpness.  The RE0 doesn't have articulation.  Sensitivity and sounds are not alone good treble.  A coherent, accurate recreation of source information is good treble.  The RE0 really bugged me on this one, and it took a while for me to see this clearly.  The RE0 has high frequency information, sounds, "notes", things you hear as some sort of information.  However, really paying attention to what's there shows that it simply isn't actual info, at least not source material.  It is noise that sounds like information yet isn't representative of what the source info is supposed to be, like a cymbal crash that is played that doesn't sound like a cymbal but comes out like detailed "stuff."  I have a saying that I use to describe the RE0.  The RE0 is like a home audio full range driver.  It tries to play all frequencies and largely works, but it is obvious it is somewhat limited on both ends and distinctly lacks at accurately reproducing these extremes.

 

I know the RE-ZERO has been said to have key improvements in its main limited areas like dynamics and sound stage.  For that there is worth to look at the RE-ZERO.  I am quite impressed by the RE252 which was also a solution to people not liking the RE0, and I know Hifi Man can make a very good product.  The RE-ZERO runs some driver that's apparently a bit better than the RE0.  How it sounds, I don't know, haven't heard one yet.  There's supposed to be a RE262 coming out as well, and I think HiFi Man is making some killer products and seems to keep making better and better stuff.

 

I know I'm ripping on the RE0 a bit.  Frankly, it's an excellent product in its own right.  It's a great buy at $99 and represents a real value.  Most of its like is based on the fact that it doesn't really do anything bad.  It's like a reliable car that gets you from point A to point B and back again every day for 20 years and all you do to it is change oil.  It's not broken.  It does a lot of things well.  There is high value in this alone.  However, beyond this it simply doesn't compete with a lot of the higher end products out there.

I found RE0 treble to be very clean, clear and detialed, but only when driven out of a decent source, preferably amped by a dedicated amp. Which source did you use with your RE0? Also, I did not find RE0 to be all that sharp sounding, at least not when compared to balanced armature drivers. Compared to the treble I heard on some armatures like Super.fi 5 Pro and Q-jays, the treble on the RE0 is very smooth and easy on the ears, whereas balanced armature drives tend to put out a sharper, harsher treble.

And also I don't understand - are you saying that RE0 produces sounds that are not there on a recording?  So that would mean that RE0 distorts sounds? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. The only explanation for this that I can think of is that it is your source that distorts and RE0 is so revealing that it clearly shows the distortion.

I know I'm not making friends when I talk about the RE0.  At the time, I was limited to a few pieces of hardware, my laptop, my bro's laptop, sony walkman mp3 player, and my desktop.  My bro's laptop output is quite good, mine so so.  My desktop is ok, and the walkman is decent.  At the time, I did not have my 2Move amp, unfortunately, and I only had my so so FiiO E5 as an amp source which is limited.  I'm not new to the variation of performance of the source devices.  I'm not new to the effects of inadequate amping.  Amping does have the benefit of scale.  Low power output will still let the earphone work correctly at lower levels.  It's a matter of scale.

The RE0 is clean, clear, and offers a lot of detail.  One thing it does well is control.  I agree it's an earphone that has a preference towards higher powered amps.  It's something I was aware of using the RE0, the ER4S, and the OK1 buds.  The FiiO E5 was noticeably inadequate for all of these, helpful but not quite effortless to the limits of the driver.  The RE0 isn't what I'd call sharp sounding.  My expression of sharpness revolves around how it presents the note.  It has a strong leading edge that is sharp.  This creates a good sense of detail, although the RE0 doesn't exactly do much after.  This is sort of a side effect of too much control.  Notes can end up a little too taught and short.  Too much, and you begin to lack fullness, body, weight of the note.  In the RE0's case, this makes it sound a bit weak.  A powerful amp can aid this because you can force a bit out of a driver.  However, it doesn't come naturally.  An inverse would be Denon's C700 which is relatively loose.  It probably favors more motor control than suspension control.  Output seems much more effortless as well as articulate but also importantly full.   Inaccuracy is distortion, yes.  There are many types of inaccuracy.  I wish I could blame the source.  Frankly the RE0 sounds amazing at times, and the treble sounds spectacular at times.  It's just that it doesn't do it all of the time, and when you sit down and look at the treble critically and really listen to what is being presented, it's just not correct.  The best I can describe it like is running a full range driver, like a 3" full range.  You get the sensitivity and extension and you get high frequency information.  It's simply that there are certain limitations of those sounds.  The overall quality of the sound is decent but limited.  It's tough to understand the scale of difference until you've heard better.  This is a matter of personal experience.  I will say the RE0 is good.  There's no doubt about that.  It just isn't outstanding, not as outstanding as the hype leads people to believe.  I just can't say it any other way.  Limited capability is limited capability.  Now other aspects are personal preference like the slightly dark tone (responds well to EQing change).  Even the presentation of note and dynamic range can be preferential, although I do personally consider a lack of articulation of note as a limiting factor.  The sound stage of the RE0 is not great.  I very good earphone will let you see the placement of the sounds in distinct locations.  It will show you direction and distancing, the sense of space between people, even the size and space of the room.  This requires excellent articulation and texture within the notes.  It's why earphones like the ER4Sm Custom 3, C700, and UM3X have very, very good sound stages where you get great senses of placement, spacing, and the area around.  The RE0 lacks the ability to product the necessary information to create this.

I do like the RE0 and feel it's an excellent bang for the buck product that offers a lot of capability and quality of sound for its price tag.  I also feel it is limited in a number of ways, and because of this, I can never view the RE0 as a product that even competes with many of these better products.  Now the RE-ZERO is interesting in the fact that is a new driver and does offer at least to some degree the qualities lacked by the RE0.  This makes it a potentially excellent products.  I've seen mention of better sound stage.  I've seen mention of better dynamics.  These are a couple of the major limitations of the RE0, so the RE-ZERO is very interesting.  It's just they are so new that very view ears have heard them.  There is a certain reliability in a good number of people praising as well as describing a product in good detail.  This just hasn't happened yet with the RE-ZERO.  There is little worth in one man's word (including just mine talking to you), however this is much worth in 10, 20, or 100 people saying the same thing about a product.  The CK10 has this kind of worth.  I'll agree that the RE0 has this kind of worth too, and that's something I can't argue against.  I think there has to be some understanding of scale in the sense that the RE0 is a high bang for the buck product and used by a lot of people on a budget and that have been using a lot of budget level products.  Now there is more worth in people who have used a wider range of products.  Some of the praise for the RE0 comes from people who have used a wide array of products.  There is praise for the CK10 from these people too.  If OP was only going to spend $100 max, I'd be more inclined to agree that the RE0 is a very good option.  Since OP is up to $200, why settle for something less.  There simply are better products available within that $200 limit and the CK10 is one of the top options.

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