Turntable Questions - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olias of Sunhillow 

I recently upgraded from a Music Hall MMF 2.2LE to a Technics SL1200-mk2........ Paired with a Denon DL-160 cartridge,..........

I'm using a Cambridge 640p phono section at the moment, and find it to be solid as well.

Just a quick heads up.

I tried using a CA 640P with the Denon DL-103 on my Technics. The DL103 is a genuine low output MC cartridge. If I had done my homework properly I could have worked out it wasn't a good match with the so called MC stage on the 640P.  Not enough gain - and noisy (3dB channel @ < 120Hz). CA changed my first one but the replacement was just the same.

Denon DL-110 & 160 are high output MC so are an excellent match and to be fair the MM phono stage is fine. I use a Audio-Technica 440MLa MM now and am very pleased.

Meanwhile. Back OT.

I've owned many turntables over the years. Including models from Dual, Linn, Thorens, Sony and Garrard. They all broke down or disappointed in some other way. Then nearly 20 years ago I bought a pair of Technics. They are still here. Good as the day they were new. Better in fact.  I could sell them tomorrow for over half what I paid for them. Best value bit of kit I ever bought.

I also would lean against audiophile dogma, and toward getting the Technics.  Audiophile "wisdom" is that even cheap belt-drive turntables are the best option - and I don't agree.  When I was getting back into vinyl after not having a turntable for a couple of years in the mid 90's, I bought a cheap Pro-ject.  It did nothing for me at all.  But I didn't want to give up, so I bought a used late-80's Denon direct drive TT, the massive DP-59L.  And *WOW*.  The sound was light years ahead of the Pro-Ject, and the Denon cost me only about $150 more (it was a high-end deck in its day).

So while I have not heard the Technics, or the newer model Project or Music Halls, my general experience has led me to say go for the Technics.  I use an "audiophile-approved" belt-drive deck now - a VPI Scoutmaster - but that's a $2,500 deck.  Things are different in that price range.

I have a couple of close friends and family who have experienced some displeasure after purchasing Brand New Entry Level/Budget Direct Drive Turntables. There is no doubt that most Denon & Technics Direct Drive turntables from the 80's are built solid, reliable and usually have pretty decent sound quality characteristics.

Purchasing a used direct drive deck from the mid 80's, replacing the stylus and or catridge will most likely outperform most entry level/budget belt driven tables. However once you start looking at belt driven tables from Music Hall or Pro-Ject in the $300-$400 range the level of performance is very surprising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk3383 

I have a couple of close friends and family who have experienced some displeasure after purchasing Brand New Entry Level/Budget Direct Drive Turntables. There is no doubt that most Denon & Technics Direct Drive turntables from the 80's are built solid, reliable and usually have pretty decent sound quality characteristics.

 

Purchasing a used direct drive deck from the mid 80's, replacing the stylus and or catridge will most likely outperform most entry level/budget belt driven tables. However once you start looking at belt driven tables from Music Hall or Pro-Ject in the $300-$400 range the level of performance is very surprising.

Agreed - the older budget/entry level DD decks of the past were not very good.  But those can be bought for around $25.  You can get a NICE "vintage" DD deck for $200-300, and that will, IMO, be a step-up from the entry level Music Halls, if fitted with a nice new cartridge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld 

Just a quick heads up.

 

I tried using a CA 640P with the Denon DL-103 on my Technics. The DL103 is a genuine low output MC cartridge. If I had done my homework properly I could have worked out it wasn't a good match with the so called MC stage on the 640P.  Not enough gain - and noisy (3dB channel @ < 120Hz). CA changed my first one but the replacement was just the same.

 

Denon DL-110 & 160 are high output MC so are an excellent match and to be fair the MM phono stage is fine. I use a Audio-Technica 440MLa MM now and am very pleased.

 

A fair point and good for all to know. I've read several valuable posts that dissuaded me from pursuing a DL-103 unless accompanied by a phono stage with a suitable MC input. By all accounts, the 640p is not that phono stage.

Were I being perfectly honest with myself, I would admit that the DL-160 into the 640p's MM input is just a bit noisier than I'd like. I have a MF V-LPS waiting in the wings for comparison purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab 

Agreed - the older budget/entry level DD decks of the past were not very good.  But those can be bought for around $25.  You can get a NICE "vintage" DD deck for $200-300, and that will, IMO, be a step-up from the entry level Music Halls, if fitted with a nice new cartridge.

I used to own a SL-1200MK2 a couple years back, it was a very good sounding table but due to wear and tear I decided to purchase a Pro-Ject table. It has surpassed my expectations. Great value.

If I lived in the Chicago area I would have loved to bring it to a local meet for you to hear. Hopefully I will make the trip over one of these days, check out a Bulls game and a friend whos been begging me to come visit, she says Chicago has the best pizza and hotdogs or something....

I was actually the only person who brought a Turntable to CanJam - I took my Denon DP-59L.  Quite a few people were pretty surprised how good it sounded!  Of course I was using it with the excellent Benz ACE and the equally excellent Ray Samuels Nighthawk phono stage, each of which cost more than I paid for the Denon
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by digger945 

I was given a Technics SL-B350 and wanted to get some pointers on a recommended brush or method to go thru before playing. Right now I use a micro fiber cloth and lightly let it drag on the surface as the record is spinning. I'm not ready for a washer just yet.

Before every side:

carbon fiber cleaning brush link

One more like this link may work better with slightly dirtier records.

After every side

stylus brush. link some carts come with a stylus cleaning brush. The "sideways one" like that is nice because its easier to get between the stylus tip and the plinth. there isnt always enough room for the stylus brushes that look like mini paint brushes.

Every now and then (or more if you feel like it):

Mr. Clean's magic eraser (original white one, not the one with soap)

There are several methods for this, but the general theme is you cut off a small piece from the block, stick it to something (glue dosnt work :facepalm: ) and then gently drop/lift the stylus onto it (dont move the eraser back to front like with the brush! Only vertical.) I use a piece about 1/8" thick, 3/8" wide by 5/8" long taped to a Popsicle stick with double sided tape. ALWAYS use the normal stylus brush after Mr. Clean's eraser.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olias of Sunhillow 

I recently upgraded from a Music Hall MMF 2.2LE to a Technics SL1200-mk2. I was never particularly happy with the MH --

 

There was a comment on what MMF stands for in the "what does VPI stand for" thread at audioasylum a few weeks ago.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab 

I was actually the only person who brought a Turntable to CanJam - I took my Denon DP-59L.  Quite a few people were pretty surprised how good it sounded!  Of course I was using it with the excellent Benz ACE and the equally excellent Ray Samuels Nighthawk phono stage, each of which cost more than I paid for the Denon
 

I really want to hear the Ray Samuels Nighthawk Phone Stage. I have read some very encouraging reviews. I wonder how it compares with something like a Tom Evans phono preamp.

Glad to hear your investing a little more to the budget, I'm sure the table you end up with won't dissapoint

Technics SL1200MKII > Denon DL110/160/103>Cambridge 640P is a great combo and as has been mentioned you can upgrade the arm, which is something not really worthwhile on any of the other tables mentioned above. See here for more mods. http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/ one guy even has an SME V on there, which is an arm costing thousands. These other Rega / Pro-Ject decks are great for an introduction to vinyl on a budget but don't underestimate the potential of SL1200.

Fixed.

To run a DL-103 at it's best you really need to use a transformer based pre pre amp.  Not to cause a row or upset anyone. It'll work but it'll be a low level and comparatively noisy (~2/3 dB). Shame because the arm/cart is a decent match but like I said you really need to add in the cost of a transformer based (or v. dear int. unit maybe) to make the whole thing worthwhile.

It is strange that although you can now buy  a half decent anything else in the audio chain for as little as $100 no one has ever produced a turntable that has been really recomendable at less than the Rega 2/3 or more recently the Technics1200. Been the same for over 30 years.   

To use any moving coil catridge requires careful selection of the phono pre-amp stage due to the extremely low voltage and its highly susceptible to external noise and hum, etc