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Audio-gd Digital Interface - Page 13

post #181 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWorlDofSPACE View Post

Hi guys,

 

I am one of the testers.

Kingwa told me he is trying to put real 75ohm BNC sockets on the converter.

The manufacturer has declared that the sockets Kingwa uses are 75ohm but he does not think so.

The same are on hi-face so they should be also not true 75ohm sockets!!!

The interfaces will be shipped at the end of this month, he says.

 

I think that the reference here is hi-face but KINGWA would never send the units out to test when,

they would not be shore in the quality of their product. I read a lot of hi-face reviews and its not a perfect

solution. For me the major factor is if the sound after it becomes more natural, easy flowing as analogue sources sound like.

 


See, I don't understand this - can Kingwa give a reason as to why he thinks these sockets aren't 75ohm?  Has he tested them because there is no other way. I think it is a bit disingenuous of him to say this about the Hiface without good reason or evidence to back it up - it is the equivalent of dissing the other product & it's designers (they didn't know that it wasn't a 75 ohm socket but I do). I don't think this is fair really, do you?

 

Now he might have strong evidence to back this up but all we are hearing is a campaign of whispers so please let's put this to bed - is there evidence that this is not a 75ohm socket? 

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #182 of 3999

While not perfect, LiFePO4 battery modded hiFace with attenuators is the best USB audio interface I've tried. I'm talking about pretty high quality transport which is thoroughly "vaccinated" against known forms of "digititis".

 

Matching it's standard would be quite a feat. Implementing such interface IN a DAC would be fantastic.

post #183 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post




See, I don't understand this - can Kingwa give a reason as to why he thinks these sockets aren't 75ohm?  Has he tested them because there is no other way. I think it is a bit disingenuous of him to say this about the Hiface without good reason or evidence to back it up - it is the equivalent of dissing the other product & it's designers (they didn't know that it wasn't a 75 ohm socket but I do). I don't think this is fair really, do you?

 

Now he might have strong evidence to back this up but all we are hearing is a campaign of whispers so please let's put this to bed - is there evidence that this is not a 75ohm socket? 


Ask him.  His email address is on the web site. 

 

Also, don't forget that you're a Member of the Trade with an indirect financial interest in the Hiface, which affects the kinds of things you can say about products from other manufacturers.

post #184 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post




Ask him.  His email address is on the web site. 

 

Also, don't forget that you're a Member of the Trade with an indirect financial interest in the Hiface, which affects the kinds of things you can say about products from other manufacturers.

I'm well aware that I'm a member of the trade (as you continuously point out :)) But I'm not the one making any claims about another's products, Kingwa is so I believe your comment should be directed at him or those who are apparently reporting his statements. I think this should be put to rest now & clarified - it's not my place to do so!
 

post #185 of 3999

Changed my sig so nobody is confused about my status.


Edited by jkeny - 7/20/10 at 4:15am
post #186 of 3999


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Bling View Post
I think Kingwa can be pleased with all the chat the DSP-3 "testing process" is generating. People are speculating and talking about it. I think that's OK so long as we don't get carried away. I hope the DSP-3 is good (I will be getting it with the PS). For that matter, I hope both John Kenny's modified hiface and the upcoming evo are good too. The more products of quality that come to market, the better. It means Kingwa et al will have to lift their game and keep prices down.


True.. just becareful not to let other's polarise the opinions of testers.  I have no vested interest in both units, at the end one of them must go!... But i'm not pleased with the fact that the hiface is dependant upon software, but then again its a usb to spdif converter 'duh'.. and needs a pc/laptop to be used in conjunction with the unit.  The DI on the other hand is a more flexible option, offering both USB & Coax inputs and external power.  For my needs, this is a more flexible option as it allows me to send the spdif digital out from my cdp as well as from my laptop (not in parallel)..

post #187 of 3999

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post

Changed my sig so nobody is confused about my status.


Good on you.  Don't know why the admins haven't put a tag in your profile yet though.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post



I'm well aware that I'm a member of the trade (as you continuously point out :)) But I'm not the one making any claims about another's products, Kingwa is so I believe your comment should be directed at him or those who are apparently reporting his statements. I think this should be put to rest now & clarified - it's not my place to do so!
 


You're asking for clarification, I'm telling you where to get it.  Nobody here other than Kingwa himself (his username is "audio-gd") can answer you.  I have written the same thing to many people who post asking on the forums for answers to tricky questions when they should be emailing their questions to the source.  I really don't understand why people often ask the wrong people in the wrong place, not just you and not just about Audio-gd. 

post #188 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post


Good on you.  Don't know why the admins haven't put a tag in your profile yet though.

 


You're asking for clarification, I'm telling you where to get it.  Nobody here other than Kingwa himself (his username is "audio-gd") can answer you.  I have written the same thing to many people who post asking on the forums for answers to tricky questions when they should be emailing their questions to the source.  I really don't understand why people often ask the wrong people in the wrong place, not just you and not just about Audio-gd. 

Well, if he is a member here, he surely knows by now that there is some confusion & concern over his statement so I would think the onus is on him & I'm surprised he hasn't posted about it. What would it look like if I emailed him - got an answer & posted it here with my obvious interest in the Hiface?

 

I really don't think a manufacturer can make a statement about another product's apparent flaw & not back up how he arrived at his damaging conclusion, do you? It really is not good practise! I know it has generated more posts & wasted more bandwith then is necessary.  
 

post #189 of 3999

He's not confident with his English is my understanding of why he doesn't post. 

 

Anyway, while I was doing the washing, I thought of a bunch of stuff I wanted to write so you can understand why I'm posting.

 

The Hiface has clearly become one of the latest FOTMs on Head-fi.  I don't think this is a bad thing, as people are always seeking system upgrades that make a worthy improvement for the money.  The trouble that has come along with it is a lot of discussion about digital interfaces and whatnot, much of it vague, and much of it based on things other people have written, which may or may not have been based on other things found online, but without any actual solid understanding behind it.  In other words, people are talking out of their arses, bigtime.  And it's confusing people.  I just saw a post in another thread where someone said he wasn't going to consider a particular DAC because he'd picked up the idea that it was no good without a Hiface as well, which went over his budget.  Also, someone was asking about a cheap DAC/amp, whether they should spend almost as much as the device on a Hiface to go with it. What the ****?  Seriously.  But it gives you an idea just how stupid this has started to become.  Actually, I tell a lie, it has been stupid for a long while now, to the point that people who had no idea what they were talking about, tried to tell Dan Lavry about digital.  That is hilariously bad.

 

Now that leads us to the subject of this very topic.  Kingwa, I believe, is an honest and straight-up guy who, from all my correspondence with him, seems to know his stuff.  That doesn't mean, of course, his gear can't be criticised (his original case-work, for example, was not so great, but that's another matter), but he is, as should be obvious, is open to feedback.  He does tend to build stuff based on that, and at speeds which, considering the technology he uses, does seem rather amazing.  I asked him about balanced headphone amps once.  Just a casual enquiry.  Next thing we knew, a month or two later, he announced a balanced amp.  Anyway, seems people have asked him about all sorts of gear, including a digital interface, as we are now talking about one. He's very keen on getting feedback, so he tends to send stuff out for free for people to try.  He doesn't want to build crap (it took 2 years after our first request for him to build a good, entry-level DAC/amp below $250 for this very reason) and he refused outright to put an optical input in my Reference 1, which at the time was his best DAC, because he didn't want to add anything that would negatively impact on the sound.  His measurements of the various inputs put BNC and RCA at the lowest jitter levels compared to AES and optical, so that's what he designed in.  He has relented now (see the Reference 7), but the point is, he doesn't do things without a reason. You need to ask him directly his reasons though.  I've been surprised to find he has reasons for even the simplest things he does which didn't seem good to me.

 

So what we have, ultimately, is, on the one hand, experienced and qualified MOTs on one side (I'm thinking of quite a few people here when I write this) and a bunch of forum idiots (me included to some degree, i admit it) talking their arses on the other side, and influencing other members with BS on the other. Sometimes the things the qualified MOTs say causes confusion (especially if, as with one MOT, they are obsessed with jitter) as digital audio is incredibly complex.

 

Now, jkeny, don't take this the wrong way, but as an observation (maybe I should be PM'ing you this not posting it here): I've noticed you've been banned from one forum already, and I can see from the way you post, why.  Already a thread you've contributed to heated debate in on here has been closed and you're close to, if not actually breaking the rules with the posts you're making in this thread (and, now I think of it, your signature DOES break the forum rules -- you do need your proper MOT tag).  What I do see is, while on the one hand, your contribution to Hiface mod discussion is great (this kind of thing is one of the great aspects of Head-fi, that people will show others how to improve the sound of their gear cheaply) on the other hand, I see you talking out your arse about digital things based on info from others and you're going around trashing discussion, whether you're aware of it or not.  Honestly, who gives a toss about whether a connector is exactly 75 Ohms?  The point of one of my previous posts, where I asked you if you'd measured the jitter difference (I know you can not, reliably, without spending a large amount of money) was to point out that, really, the whole discussion of it is BS, as, surely, unless we're talking about $10k DACs and similar very high-end set-ups, where even there it's debatable whether it will audibly affect anything, it's not going to matter significantly enough. It's certainly not worth all this stupid argument when we're talking about cheap gear people are buying for mid-to-high end DACs to improve the digital input.*

 

But now, you guys have made a big deal of the socket, so now Kingwa will go to a lot of trouble to investigate it. But, from what I know of him, he'll be straight about what he finds, good or bad.  Again though, if the connector he is using, or the one on the Hiface isn't perfect in some way, will it really matter that much? 

 

Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

*Now if it did turn out the connector makes a huge difference, I'd want to know about it, but I'm honestly dubious.  Hell, I'm using an RCA cable one of my digital connections.  What a sinner I am not using BNC though I have it available!  I will be upgrading the internal digital wiring to 75 Ohms in the future, as it's dead cheap to do so, but I don't consider it such a huge deal. All these incremental improvements to my rig I've been doing have added up quite nicely and it's interesting to experiment.

post #190 of 3999

This new Audio-gd digital interface seems very intersting. Kingwa asked me to try it and I accepted. I don't have the stock hiface anymore, so I will only be able to compare to the Teralink X2 and jkeny's modified Hiface. My guess is that it will fall somewhere in between. It will be intersting to see how close it can come to the battery powered hiface which is simply the best transport (CD or computer based) I have tried to date.


One thing that bothers me though is that an increasing number of mannufacturers use the Tenor chips (Teradak, Audio-gd, Firestone...) and it has one major flaw (in my opinion) as it is not capable of passing 24/88 through. As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong), they can only do 44.1, 48, 96. Most people won't mind but for those who got some 24/88 files, it can be an issue.

post #191 of 3999

Well I took the hiface into the lab and tested the "75 ohm" connector with a scope,  the procedure is simple and I can explain it to anyone who understand ohms law and voltage division.   The hiface connector is a cheap 50 ohm impedance connector.  Change it to an Amphenol (that actually has a datasheet) and be done with it.

 

Its no different than the P-O-S 22.579 miniature clock they substituted that gives terrible SQ on the new units.

 

Jkeny,  I like you but folks must understand he is now a distributor of Hiface units (you can't send him a unit to be modded only buy new units through him)  so really has no business posting in a competitors thread.  I think AudioGD has more class than to post in Jenky's <cough> advertisemen <cough> I mean review thread.

 

Jkeny show some class here and stay out of this thread please.


Edited by regal - 7/20/10 at 6:30am
post #192 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

Now, jkeny, don't take this the wrong way, but as an observation: I've noticed you've been banned from one forum already, and I can see from the way you post, why.  Already a thread you've contributed to heated debate in on here has been closed and you're close to, if not actually breaking the rules with the posts you're making in this thread (and, now I think of it, your signature DOES break the forum rules -- you do need your proper MOT tag).  What I do see is, while on the one hand, your contribution to Hiface mod discussion is great (this kind of thing is one of the great aspects of Head-fi, that people will show others how to improve the sound of their gear cheaply) on the other hand, I see you talking out your arse about digital things based on info from others and you're going around trashing discussion, whether you're aware of it or not.  Honestly, who gives a toss about whether a connector is exactly 75 Ohms?  The point of one of my previous posts, where I asked you if you'd measured the jitter difference (I know you can not, reliably, without spending a large amount of money) was to point out that, really, the whole discussion of it is BS, as, surely, unless we're talking about $10k DACs and similar very high-end set-ups, where even there it's debatable whether it will audibly affect anything, it's not going to matter significantly enough. It's certainly not worth all this stupid argument when we're talking about cheap gear people are buying for mid-to-high end DACs to improve the digital input.

 


I agree that this whole discussion about 75 ohms connectors is pointless in this section of the forum.

 

As a previous experience, I had Kingwa add a true 75 ohms Canare BNC input on my dac19mk3. I compared a lot the BNC vs. RCA inputs using the same cables and found the difference very small. A few people asked if they should change their transport or DAC in order to get BNC and I told them it was not worth it in my opinion. Of course if one has the choice, it is better to go with the better quality connectors/components but it is not the end of the world to have connectors that are not exactly 75 ohms (in my experience).

There are other things to worry about in an audio chain.

 

Personally, I don't care if a transport uses a 20 ohms or 75ohms connector. What is more important is how good it sounds to my ears.

post #193 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post

Well I took the hiface into the lab and tested the "75 ohm" connector with a scope,  the procedure is simple and I can explain it to anyone who understand ohms law and voltage division.   The hiface connector is a cheap 50 ohm impedance connector.  Change it to an Amphenol (that actually has a datasheet) and be done with it.

 

Its no different than the P-O-S 22.579 miniature clock they substituted that gives terrible SQ on the new units.

 

Jkeny,  I like you but folks must understand he is now a distributor of Hiface units (you can't send him a unit to be modded only buy new units through him)  so really has no business posting in a competitors thread.  I think AudioGD has more class than to post in Jenky's <cough> advertisemen <cough> I mean review thread.

 

Jkeny show some class here and stay out of this thread please.


Hi regal,

 

While I agree that jkeny shoud stay out of this thread, I don't agree with you implying that my review of the modified Hiface is an advertisement thread. I had been a user of the Hiface for a few months before jkeny sent me his modified Hiface. It was good enough that I sent my stock hiface for modification at the end of the review period (along with the review sample). I had to live for around 3 weeks without a decent transport (while waiting for my hiface back). Why would I do that if it were advertisement as you implied?

 

But I also agree, given that he became a hiface distributor now (which wasn't the case at the time he sent me a unit to review), it is not jkeny's place to post in this thread.

 

ps: I will send a PM about the Hiface clocks in order to not derail this thread

post #194 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post




.  Honestly, who gives a toss about whether a connector is exactly 75 Ohms?  The point of one of my previous posts, where I asked you if you'd measured the jitter difference (I know you can not, reliably, without spending a large amount of money) was to point out that, really, the whole discussion of it is BS, as, surely, unless we're talking about $10k DACs and similar very high-end set-ups, where even there it's debatable whether it will audibly affect anything,



I disagree,  perhaps you didn't notice a difference because your transport has to have a 75ohm output impedance ,  your cable 75 ohm, both the BNC connectors 75 ohm,  and then last there needs to be a 75ohm load infront of the digital receiver in the DAC.  If you don't have all these then obviously you won't notice a difference.   I went thru the trouble of doing this with my hiface (changing the connector and the pulse transformer) twice and I assure you there is a big difference when there are no reflections.  If you understand transmission line principles at all it would make sense,  but you are obviously not the authority here  (but I still envy your ears:)

post #195 of 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

He's not confident with his English is my understanding of why he doesn't post. 

 

Anyway, while I was doing the washing, I thought of a bunch of stuff I wanted to write so you can understand why I'm posting.

 

The Hiface has clearly become one of the latest FOTMs on Head-fi.  I don't think this is a bad thing, as people are always seeking system upgrades that make a worthy improvement for the money.  The trouble that has come along with it is a lot of discussion about digital interfaces and whatnot, much of it vague, and much of it based on things other people have written, which may or may not have been based on other things found online, but without any actual solid understanding behind it.  In other words, people are talking out of their arses, bigtime.  And it's confusing people.  I just saw a post in another thread where someone said he wasn't going to consider a particular DAC because he'd picked up the idea that it was no good without a Hiface as well, which went over his budget.  Also, someone was asking about a cheap DAC/amp, whether they should spend almost as much as the device on a Hiface to go with it. What the ****?  Seriously.  But it gives you an idea just how stupid this has started to become.  Actually, I tell a lie, it has been stupid for a long while now, to the point that people who had no idea what they were talking about, tried to tell Dan Lavry about digital.  That is hilariously bad.

 

Just replying in case it was in reference to me (pardon me if I'm wrong) which I replied to in the thread I created and I will re-post it here for whatever reason.

 

"...I know I don't need the HiFace, but I'd like to listen to hi-res music and the usb output at the moment only supports 16/44. Do correct me if I'm wrong though. Open to ideas :)

hope I don't come across as trying to say that I need the hiface. My bad."

 

And from my understanding, the DF version does not support 16/44 (reading the website) and if I wish to feed it a high-res signal, I will need the HiFace (or an equivalent). But yes, on the other hand, a lot of posts on Head-fi are misleading in that many consumers including myself are mislead to believe that there are major differences in the use of a product, but really, in all honesty, the difference is not as big as the words used lead many to believe. Many people outside Head-fi are unhappy with the way things are thrown about like FOTMs over here where many superlatives are used, and many things are claimed.
 

Also, I find it poor that people with the knowledge of all this are not actually sharing this knowledge and joining discussions where misleading information is thrown in, especially when they have read it and "know" it to be false. Again, the forum was meant to help people, meet, talk about like interests and to make informed choices.

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