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T1 v. DT880/600, Round 1 - Page 3

post #31 of 213
Thread Starter 

T1 UNABLE TO ANSWER THE BELL FOR ROUND 2

 

With relief bordering on elation I packed and boxed up the T1, then rounded out the evening's musical enjoyment with the DT880/600.  The latter sound notably smoother, warmer and more transparent than the T1.  The T1's annoying edginess was really getting to me.

 

USG, I would still like to believe that there is possibly a shorting problem in the connection somewhere, and I will send in for a replacement pair from Beyerdynamic just to make sure.  Besides your- and myself, no one is admitting that they, too, have that hum/short/static when plugging/unplugging.  

 

One thing I did not do was critical listening over either the Denon AVR-1905 or the RAM-modded Samsung HD-841 and AMC integrated (both SS).  At this point, though, I am so weary of the T1 that I don't deem it worth my while to unpack them and try them with solid state amplification.

 

If the pair I just auditioned are not defective, then my disappointment with the T1 rivals, nay surpasses, the extreme disappointment I underwent while auditioning the DT880/250 ohm (2005).  

 

The T1 did fare better with the Bada, which was tubed with a Mullard ECC33 and two Russian 1578: no slouches here.  However, after switching from the T1 to the DT880/600, it was no contest in terms of ease, smoothness, warmth and overall listenability, even with better-than-average recordings like GRP's "Digital Duke".  The DT880/600 stayed on my head while the T1 stayed at arm's length.

 

If these T1 are not defective--BIG contingency, then I have the same major quibble with them as I did with the DT880/250 (2005): Beyer employed a redesign bent on filling in the midrange, but at the critical loss of both high and low frequency extension.  In this respect, the T1 are most reminiscent of my least favorite DT880, the--aaack!--250 ohm, 2005 version.  Yes.  The middle has gotten much better with the T1, the best ever, but the high and low ends fall just enough shy of the mark to make me willing to walk away from Beyer's flagship offering and possibly not turn around to take a second listen.

 

In closing I reiterate, in a final gasping effort to further suspend my disbelief, that I suspect my T1 (and possibly USG's) might be defective.  That deep in my mind I "just know" the T1 are an exponential improvement over the DT880/600 in every respect.  

 

Oh, how I want to like these headphones! 


Edited by pataburd - 6/17/10 at 11:59pm
post #32 of 213
Thread Starter 


USG,

Thank you for the thoughtful response.  See my interspersed comments in the quote box for your original post.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
That was a very good review Pat.      As I read it, all I could do was nod my head in agreement.

 

To take some of your concerns one at a time.....

 

I have tried the T-1 with a GS-1 (a transistor amp), a Woo 3 ( a tube amp) and an M^3 (an opamp amp) and each time my findings parallel yours to a greater or lesser extent.  So, no it's not an amping issue.

 

***That's a rather disconcerting affirmation!***

 

Your findings are not inconsistent with every T-1 user.  I am squarely in your corner and I believe Asr was as well.

 

I hear the same staticky sound whenever I plug the T-1 in to any of the 3 amps I have tried it with, and I hear it regardless of whether the amps are on or off.

 

***That's a second, rather disconcerting affirmation!***

 

I doubt we have defective T-1s..... we're hearing the same things almost the same way.

 

***That's a third, rather disconcerting affirmation!***

 

What I can add is this.  Like the 701s, the higher the quality of the recording you use, the better the T-1 sounds.  If you only stick to the best of the best, the T-1 can do quite a credible 3 dimensional job, but when you stray to internet radio, cable TV, older or lesser quality recordings, the T-1 reveals flaws like all get out, which sound as you described. 

 

***You raise a very good point.  Besides Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances (London/Dutoit/Philadelphia Orchestra)--which sounded perty dang good, I really didn't listen to any other well-recorded material in this genre; but then, I'm not going to take out a second mortgage to repopulate my shelves exclusively with XRCDs, SACDs, Chesky recordings and Ultradisc IIs, either.  : )***

 

So for  general use, the T-1 is not more enjoyable or comfortable, than my '03 880s or my "relaxed" 650s (which I really like too).  But there are two notable areas where the T-1 excels with the right material:  the T-1 has a vast 3 dimensional sound stage and a presence and clarity of details that none of my other headphones come close to.

 

***Agreed.  Although I don't think the Beyer's "vast 3-dimensional sound stage", as you aptly describe it, evokes a particularly believable sense of elements being anchored or well-coordinated in space.  Nor do they convey to me an exceptional gradation of depth and/or layering.  But this also holds true, IMHO, for all three DT880 we bring to this discussion (i.e. 250 ohm (2003), 250 ohm (2005) and 600 ohm).  

 

I will also posit (although I might be tipsy and loose-lipped while under the influence of sentimentality) that the DT880 '03 was capable of producing an even vaster and more 3-dimensional sound stage than the T1.

 

And yes.  As far as "presence and clarity of detail", the T1 are squarely in a league of their own.  They offer not only what I'll call, for lack of a better term, "outline" detail, but an abundance of tone, pitch and dynamic detail as well, making them almost mesmerizing with certain tracks.  In this respect, I concur with the popular descriptor, "lush", for characterizing the T1's presentation.*** 

 

As far as sound signature goes, the T-1 are the '03 880s so anyone who knows 880s will recognize the T-1s as a higher resolution family member.

 

***I think the T1 bear a closer resemblance to the DT880/600 and then to the DT880/250 (2005), and that the DT880/600 sound more akin to the DT880/'03 than do the T1.*** 

 

I was going to say that I've been listening to three sound tracks today,  KT Tunstall's "Drastic Fantastic" (amazon's 256), Nora Jones' "Not too Late" (amazon's 256) and Francoise Hardys' "La Pluie Sans Parapluie" ( flac)  and resolution aside, my favorite headphone for the accurate representation of vocals and instruments are the 650s, but when switching from the T-1s back to the 650s, I realize how much of that big window the T-1 opened, is gone.  Curiously, it is not so obvious when going the other way. Going from the 650s to the T-1s, feels like a high frequency rush, a loss of bass and pretty much what Pat described and it's only after a long few minutes that I can adjust back to the T-1 sound and appreciate the increased resolution.  If I had a wish list, it would be that the T-1s had a substantial bass like the 650s and that they were lighter and more comfortable. 

 

***Going from the DT880/600 to the T1, you get all the tone, pitch and dynamic bonuses with gobs of added detail and texture, but I think you also lose just enough--and it doesn't take much--raw extension, both high and low, to deprive the T1 of the sense of ease and effortlessness that the DT880/600 convey--and to a greater extent, what the DT880/'03 conveyed during the six or seven years prior to the T1's unveiling.  

 

I would rather do without the added detail (of the T1) than to do without the sense of ease afforded by an incremental extension to the upper and lower frequencies (of the DT880/600).  To my ears, the latter constitutes the larger and less desirable trade-off.  

 

(Incidentally, with the UP-OCC recabled K501, I am perfectly willing to abide their treble and bass roll-off for the sake of enjoying their peerless midrange integrity: a midrange integrity, I soberly assert, that is superior to the T1's.) 

 

Just a few comments on the albums listened to with the T-1s.  Of three, Nora's is the best engineered as far as dynamics,and sibilance and seems to be recorded at a sensible level.   Francoise's is a good click or two louder, is close miked, but still not sibilant and while KT's, was recorded at a level only slightly greater than Nora's, it contains a significant amount of sibilance.

 

USG


Now you've got me wanting to go back to my better recorded period, baroque, classical and romantic music and giving the T1 another whirl!  In retrospect, almost every disc I had spun going into this review was of the older and/or poorly recorded ilk.  However, even with better recorded material, once I swapped out the T1 for the DT880/600, that unassailable edginess, call it "shear" in the upper treble of the T1, spoiled everything.

 

Maybe the thing for me to do is to listen exclusively to the T1, and primarily with well-recorded music.  I would have to pack the DT880/600 away to ensure that I do not deliberately or instinctively reach for them.  And once again subscribe to the hackneyed adage: "Ignorance is bliss", or at least pretend to subscribe as best I could.  But having already heard what I think the DT880/600 actually do better than the T1, that's going to be a tough one to pull off.  : )

 

PAB


Edited by pataburd - 6/18/10 at 8:41am
post #33 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by pataburd View Post


In closing I reiterate, in a final gasping effort to further suspend my disbelief, that I suspect my T1 (and possibly USG's) might be defective.  That deep in my mind I "just know" the T1 are an exponential improvement over the DT880/600 in every respect.  

 

Oh, how I want to like these headphones! 

 

I'm sure you realize that this is an impractical expectation. You already know that no TOTL headphone is exponentially better than the offering beneath it. IME with the Senns, if the HD800 are 100%, then the HD600/650 can be considered a solid 75% if used with matching ancillaries.

post #34 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post

I'm sure you realize that this is an impractical expectation. You already know that no TOTL headphone is exponentially better than the offering beneath it. IME with the Senns, if the HD800 are 100%, then the HD600/650 can be considered a solid 75% if used with matching ancillaries.

 

Shah,
Any positive rational exponent will do; +1.33 for example.  : )

 

Alas!  I didn't--and still don't--think it unreasonable to have expected the T1 to AT LEAST retain everything that the DT880/600 already offered; and then simply add to the intact, pre-existing framework [of the DT880/600].  

 

My contention is this: the little bit that Beyer did not successfully implement from the DT880/600 design while finalizing the T1 became precisely the T1's Achilles' Heel.  

 

PAB


Edited by pataburd - 6/17/10 at 11:43pm
post #35 of 213
Quote:

Originally Posted by pataburd View Post

 

Shah,

Any positive rational exponent will do; +1.33 for example.  : )

 

Alas!  I didn't--and still don't--think it unreasonable to have expected the T1 to AT LEAST retain everything that the DT880/600 already offered; and then simply add to the intact, pre-existing framework [of the DT880/600].  

 

My contention is this: the little bit that Beyer did not successfully implement from the DT880/600 design while finalizing the T1 became precisely the T1's Achilles' Heel.  

 

PAB

 

This I agree with.
 

post #36 of 213

Maybe worth A-B compare with someone near you who have T1 to see is there any differences between the pairs.

post #37 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post


I have an M^3 like yours and those cans sound bright like your broadcasts are, not dark in any way.

 

How are you getting the sound from the ipod into the M^3?

 

USG


I have an LOD that converts to RCA jacks that fit into the back of the M^3.  Use of the term, "dark," may have been a bit heavy-handed on my part but I can, in no way, see how the T1 is "bright."  I find its treble fairly mellow compared to the PS1000 and the HD800.

post #38 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post




I have an LOD that converts to RCA jacks that fit into the back of the M^3.  Use of the term, "dark," may have been a bit heavy-handed on my part but I can, in no way, see how the T1 is "bright."  I find its treble fairly mellow compared to the PS1000 and the HD800.


Depends on one's sensitivity to different areas of the treble spectrum. They all have different peaks and valleys.

post #39 of 213

On my rig I hear a very detailed and transparent amp and the cans are warm smooth with musical presentation. I have 30 days to like them more or return them. I am very happy with the performance. If I used my Sony999ES to listen to redbook I may hear what Pat is hearing. The Sony opamp for cd are bright and harsh plus edgy. It is used for SACD only in my main system. The Marantz Dv6001 is very good for redbook and the Onkyo Dx7555 as well. I still am early on in my audition but helping is the T1 are burned in so I would have no downtime. The question is are they worth 1300.00. I would say that like all reference headphone they are way overpriced. But what isn't in high end. The build quality is very good and the sound signature is what appeals to me. I have no static  issue or microphonic sounds out of my cable. It also sounds very good with the Matrix M Stage. I  am enjoying my time with it so far.


Edited by Frank I - 6/18/10 at 5:28am
post #40 of 213
Quote:

Originally Posted by pataburd View Post

 

It's 6x e.  : )


The WeeeeeeSquirrel 336SE does a nice job with the K501.  The Mullard 6080/Mullard ECC33 combination was probably the best with the AKGs. 


Thx a lot I have the K400 with the EF2 hybrid right now, but there's a pair of K340 on the way to me, and I'm not sure how good they will be with the EF2 so I'm looking for potential upgrades, that will suit both phones.

post #41 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgunder View Post




Thx a lot I have the K400 with the EF2 hybrid right now, but there's a pair of K340 on the way to me, and I'm not sure how good they will be with the EF2 so I'm looking for potential upgrades, that will suit both phones.


The K340 can be difficult to drive.

post #42 of 213
Thread Starter 

Frank,

At your prompting, I think I might unpack the T1, lock the DT880/600 in a wall safe, and focus exclusively on the best recorded discs I have on hand.  

 

Since I just received some new Svetlana 6H13Cs in the mail, the WS-DV336SE will be the driving amp this time around (the DT880/600 really sound sweet with the 336SE).  Afterwards, I want to listen to the T1 through the RAM-modded HD-841/AMC XIA combination.

 

The fact that I get a shorting/humming sound when I plug/unplug and you do not really concerns me, too.

 

PAB


Edited by pataburd - 6/18/10 at 8:55am
post #43 of 213

LOL Patrick it could be you do have defective headphones. I have been listening to a wide variety of reference recordings. My favorite Sinatra at sands was a revelation for transparency, I could hear the conversations at the tables on Count basie solo. On recordings with violin and Hammond Organ I heard no sibilance. Nothing is edgy. Since my source is all Cd and Sacd I hear well recorded albums with detail no hard edge and cymbals sound as real as I have heard them, Listening to Diana Krall Love Scene I hear less sibilance than either of my two other reference cans. I have no cable issues at all. I am impressed with the T1 especially on great live recordings. The I have 25 years of reference disc that I have been collecting so its not hard to find all types of reference material.. I hope it turns out well. I do suggest if it is there then they are defective.

post #44 of 213


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank I View Post

On my rig I hear a very detailed and transparent amp and the cans are warm smooth with musical presentation. I have 30 days to like them more or return them. I am very happy with the performance. If I used my Sony999ES to listen to redbook I may hear what Pat is hearing. The Sony opamp for cd are bright and harsh plus edgy. It is used for SACD only in my main system. The Marantz Dv6001 is very good for redbook and the Onkyo Dx7555 as well. I still am early on in my audition but helping is the T1 are burned in so I would have no downtime. The question is are they worth 1300.00. I would say that like all reference headphone they are way overpriced. But what isn't in high end. The build quality is very good and the sound signature is what appeals to me. I have no static  issue or microphonic sounds out of my cable. It also sounds very good with the Matrix M Stage. I  am enjoying my time with it so far.


Hi Frank

 

Just to be clear about the static sound.  If you put on your T-1s , with the amp plugged in but turned off, and then touch the tip of the plug to the female socket in the amp or surrounding area, you hear absolutely nothing?  Is this true with all your equipment?  Now try it with the amp turned on but nothing playing. No static?

 

I just tried it again and I hear a faint static or electric like sound with my GS-1 and Woo 3.  Oddly, I hear nothing from my M^3.  (I thought I did yesterday, but hear nothing today.)

 

What puzzles me the most is how you can classify these cans as "warm" relative to your 7000s ? 

 

I have another observation related to this "warm" designation that's been given to the T-1s.  I'm listening to some Chopin Etudes and although I can hear a lot of detail from the piano and I recognize it as such,  it doesn't 'sound' like a piano.  It sounds like 880s trying to do a piano whereas my 650s flat out 'sound' like a piano, but without the 'helmet' effect of the T-1s.

 

Another thing I notice is that as I proceed downward in resolution from my GS-1 to my M^3, and replace the HiFace transport with the "Thingee"  the T-1 begins to sound more and more like the descriptions that called it smooth, warm or lush (if you can call any 880 warm or lush).  As I reverse that procedure, increasing resolution, it becomes increasingly more strident....  (seems pretty obvious what's going on)

 

In a shameless plug to try to get Frank into internet radio, I just flipped on Radio Caroline in 320 and am listening to Thunderclap Newman...

Ain't that a blast from the past.... lol 

 

USG

post #45 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post


 


Hi Frank

 

Just to be clear about the static sound.  If you put on your T-1s , with the amp plugged in but turned off, and then touch the tip of the plug to the female socket in the amp or surrounding area, you hear absolutely nothing?  Is this true with all your equipment?  Now try it with the amp turned on but nothing playing. No static?

 

I just tried it again and I hear a faint static or electric like sound with my GS-1 and Woo 3.  Oddly, I hear nothing from my M^3.  (I thought I did yesterday, but hear nothing today.)

 

What puzzles me the most is how you can classify these cans as "warm" relative to your 7000s ? 

 

I have another observation related to this "warm" designation that's been given to the T-1s.  I'm listening to some Chopin Etudes and although I can hear a lot of detail from the piano and I recognize it as such,  it doesn't 'sound' like a piano.  It sounds like 880s trying to do a piano whereas my 650s flat out 'sound' like a piano, but without the 'helmet' effect of the T-1s.

 

Another thing I notice is that as I proceed downward in resolution from my GS-1 to my M^3, and replace the HiFace transport with the "Thingee"  the T-1 begins to sound more and more like the descriptions that called it smooth, warm or lush (if you can call any 880 warm or lush).  As I reverse that procedure, increasing resolution, it becomes increasingly more strident....  (seems pretty obvious what's going on)

 

In a shameless plug to try to get Frank into internet radio, I just flipped on Radio Caroline in 320 and am listening to Thunderclap Newman...

Ain't that a blast from the past.... lol 

 

USG


I told you yesterday. IMO they are a step up from the D7000. The 7000 are darker sounding have warmth and are a great headphone. The bass on the D7000 is more deep no question. The T1 are not anemic in bass. I heard live last night the Philadelphia Orchestra with Chris Botti. The acoustic bass heard live was what I heard in the T1 with acoustic bass. If your suggesting the T1 are bright it's the internet radio you are listening too. I hear a very dynamic not bright and very musical issues. I have not static issue and these are my opinions. If you dislike yours so much sell them. As we all hear different and have different music preferences. I will say the T1 to me and my ears is a great headphone. The D7000 is also a great closed can that I enjoy very much. In the end for me it will be the T1 and the D7000 as my two main cans Evidently you prefer your 650 more and seem to not like the T1 so you should sell it instead of torturing yourself.

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