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Top gamers as unhealthy as 60 year old chain smokers. - Page 2

post #16 of 27

Turn based strategies typically involve more deep thought, whereas real time strategies rely more on surface thought

 

no one thinks 20 moves ahead when microing some tanks around
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landis View Post

You realize that there aren't a lot of differences between video games and board games like chess, right? Why wouldn't real time strategy games (Civilization, Starcraft, Warcraft, Supreme Commander, etc.) build up one's "problem solving skills", "pattern recognition" and so on? The theory is generally the same: you and your opponent(s) each command troops and must form a strategy to defeat one another. If anything, due to the incredible amount of variables that come into play thanks to the depth that these games posses, I'd say the strategies for some of these games can be far more complex and the theorizing on probabilities that could fill one's head is identical in many ways to chess. The fact is that chess IS a real time strategy game.

 

I can see where you logic is coming from, but it's either not well thought out or you've been rather misinformed on the subject.

post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Doug View Post

Turn based strategies typically involve more deep thought, whereas real time strategies rely more on surface thought

 

no one thinks 20 moves ahead when microing some tanks around
 


 

 

Well that's just not true. By saying that you're pretty well saying that the same would be true about speed chess-- quick paced movements based on quick paced deduction of your opponent's strategy while formulating and constantly building on your own. I know excellent gamers and excellent chess players, in a few cases, those people are one and the same!

 

Although, in your reply's defense, most players probably won't play as methodically in either RTS games or chess, the pros will in both cases though.

 


 


Edited by Landis - 6/22/10 at 10:56pm
post #18 of 27

sure, when it comes to parallelism, there arent a lot of differences between video games and board games. Sure, theoretically, they both follow the same process flow; but they differ GREATLY in terms of depth

 

 

 

top rts pro gamers developed their problem solving skills from RTS games, sure, but to what degree? Same with pattern recognition, critical thinking, reasoning, analytical skills, short term application of long term plans

All of those suffer greatly because of the fact gameplay in a competitive RTS game is very fast

 

Outside of the game, these pro rts gamers use problem solving, critical thinking, reasoning, etc on slower paced, less demanding practice sessions. They keep practicing until those well analyzed strategies become second nature to them.  It is through these practice sessions that habitual/instinctual decision making and actions -overtake- problem solving, critical thinking, reasoning, etc

 

Since the applied skills that pro rts gamers like moon and bisu gain are actually coming from reflexive/insinctual brain processes, do you think they can use those for real world applications?

There's no drones to mass-select then move-away if there's a reaver drop on your mineral lines in the real world -- all of that happening in a split-second -OR- doing 9+ actions in a quarter of a second to execute a triple nuke. Chess acquired skills can be used outside of chess games because you gain beneficial skills (analysis, reasoning) and not by-products(reflexive actions based on patterns) of practiced analysis, reasoning etc. like what pro RTS gamers get

 

Remember, we're talking about reflexive brain processes that occur in less than a second. --Micro/APM

("But what about speed chess?" -- well, not all speed chess players are top players; and not all top chess players are speed chess players)

 

We're just talking about RTS here. We're not yet talking about competitive fighting games like tekken or smash; competitive shooting games like CS.

Which Im sure you'll agree with me if I say that they provide little to no useful skills outside of playtime

 

 

Bottomline: the higher you go up in the pro RTS gaming scene, the more reflexes and quick decision making becomes helpful, while critical thinking, reasoning, analysis, etc become less important. Whereas in chess, you still apply the said skills even if you're already a high-rated player

 

edit:: aimed at Landis' post


Edited by KinesongPayaso - 6/22/10 at 11:25pm
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Doug View Post

Turn based strategies typically involve more deep thought, whereas real time strategies rely more on surface thought

 

no one thinks 20 moves ahead when microing some tanks around
 


 


ECGs from professional Korean StarCraft players showed that they were making conscious decisions far above the rate of normal people.

Although it isn't in the same dimension, they do have to think 20 moves ahead, but it's more like 2 moves ahead for 10 different situations.

post #20 of 27


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trysaeder View Post




ECGs from professional Korean StarCraft players showed that they were making conscious decisions far above the rate of normal people.

Although it isn't in the same dimension, they do have to think 20 moves ahead, but it's more like 2 moves ahead for 10 different situations.


and at what portion of the game do they make those above average rated conscious decision making?

At the start, when they scout, then adapt to the opponents build. Are they doing a cheese? are they expanding? are they rushing? are they teching? Thats where the above average rate of conscious decision making comes from. I assure you; when it comes to the middle game(majority of the game length), that rating will go down to a regular player's rate who played the game just as long, but at lower intensity(non pro)

 

The absurd amount of decision making you make at the start of an RTS game as a pro gamer is high indeed, but it's not sustained throughout the game. Simply because of the fact that RTS games are already figured out. One small deviation that an opponent makes from what you think his strat is gonna be, doesnt affect yours much. 7:5 ratio of marine:medics? 10 mutas to 2-shot a turret instead of 11 to 1-shot? When it comes to chess, even one movement of a 1 point pawn can affect a lot of pieces, simply because of the confined space.

 

post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KinesongPayaso View Post

sure, when it comes to parallelism, there arent a lot of differences between video games and board games. Sure, theoretically, they both follow the same process flow; but they differ GREATLY in terms of depth

 

 

 

top rts pro gamers developed their problem solving skills from RTS games, sure, but to what degree? Same with pattern recognition, critical thinking, reasoning, analytical skills, short term application of long term plans

All of those suffer greatly because of the fact gameplay in a competitive RTS game is very fast

 

Outside of the game, these pro rts gamers use problem solving, critical thinking, reasoning, etc on slower paced, less demanding practice sessions. They keep practicing until those well analyzed strategies become second nature to them.  It is through these practice sessions that habitual/instinctual decision making and actions -overtake- problem solving, critical thinking, reasoning, etc

 

Since the applied skills that pro rts gamers like moon and bisu gain are actually coming from reflexive/insinctual brain processes, do you think they can use those for real world applications?

There's no drones to mass-select then move-away if there's a reaver drop on your mineral lines in the real world -- all of that happening in a split-second -OR- doing 9+ actions in a quarter of a second to execute a triple nuke. Chess acquired skills can be used outside of chess games because you gain beneficial skills (analysis, reasoning) and not by-products(reflexive actions based on patterns) of practiced analysis, reasoning etc. like what pro RTS gamers get

 

Remember, we're talking about reflexive brain processes that occur in less than a second. --Micro/APM

("But what about speed chess?" -- well, not all speed chess players are top players; and not all top chess players are speed chess players)

 

We're just talking about RTS here. We're not yet talking about competitive fighting games like tekken or smash; competitive shooting games like CS.

Which Im sure you'll agree with me if I say that they provide little to no useful skills outside of playtime

 

 

Bottomline: the higher you go up in the pro RTS gaming scene, the more reflexes and quick decision making becomes helpful, while critical thinking, reasoning, analysis, etc become less important. Whereas in chess, you still apply the said skills even if you're already a high-rated player

 

edit:: aimed at Landis' post


I think both of us may have generalized the similarities and differences a bit much; I with all chess games requiring the same skills and you with all RTS games the same. I just recalled that zerg rush strategy that turns Starcraft, in particular, into a crap fest-- which is not to say that other RTS games don't have similar unbalanced strategies, and in which cases, you would be very correct about reflexes. Although to poke a bit at one comment made in your above post regarding fighting games and FPS games: I agree with the fighting games part, no real transferable skills other than fast button pushing, but certain parts of FPS games, particularly organized team matches could transfer leadership skills, communication skills and help the understanding of basic military strategy.

 

I'm not really an RTS person, and I misquoted the Civilization series previously as RTS when they're actually TBS (my bad to the fans) and that would make them a much more appropriate candidate for our discussion's focus! El_Doug was trying to point me in the right direction and I just let it slip out of my brain after reading it! (Sorry Doug)

 

To summarize:

 

TBS = Chess

RTS = Speed chess

 

Agreeable comparison?

 

P.S. It's 4AM and I'm hitting the sack.

post #22 of 27

Haha yea serious gamers can have some very bad eating/drinking habbits; about 2 years ago when I played Halo 3 (MLG semi-pro) I played well over 6 hours a day towards the end of the school year and all summer; don't get me wrong I loved it but I drank many energy drinks and cups of coffee. That along with no exercise, I'm sure I wasn't the healthiest person out there :)

 

I stopped playing games now and just listen to music which isn't that much better but no more energy drinks for me :)

post #23 of 27

Very interesting discussion!  (Not the OP article, the posts following it)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trysaeder View Post

ECGs from professional Korean StarCraft players showed that they were making conscious decisions far above the rate of normal people.

Although it isn't in the same dimension, they do have to think 20 moves ahead, but it's more like 2 moves ahead for 10 different situations.

Video games can make us... smarter?  :D

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landis View Post

I'm not really an RTS person, and I misquoted the Civilization series previously as RTS when they're actually TBS (my bad to the fans) and that would make them a much more appropriate candidate for our discussion's focus!

Correct.  AFAIK, Civilization is much more comporable to something like Chess or (a better analogy) Go, because while there are many variables that can be ignored or aren't as game-crucial than Chess or Go (due to the massive amount of variables and choices in such a complex construct), you still have to plan ahead.  On lower difficulties, this really doesn't matter.  But, like with Go or Chess, at higher difficulties and/or opponent skill levels, you must anticipate, understand, envision, and counter their next move, definitely more than 1 turn ahead.  I am not great at Chess, i'm Intermediate at best, and my skill at Civilization is almost exactly the same level.  This is because I suffer from a lack of ability to think far ahead in terms of possible actions/outcomes/strategic decisions, whereas the opponent can and does, allowing them to anticipate and counter my moves.  Sometimes without me even being aware that said moves are part of a deductible pattern or strategy.

post #24 of 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landis View Post

 

Although to poke a bit at one comment made in your above post regarding fighting games and FPS games: I agree with the fighting games part, no real transferable skills other than fast button pushing, but certain parts of FPS games, particularly organized team matches could transfer leadership skills, communication skills and help the understanding of basic military strategy.

 

I also remember reading something about FPS players having better observation skills and quicker cognition but I can't remember the exact article. It seems pretty similar to this article IIRC.
 

post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by NapalmK View Post

Quote:

 

I also remember reading something about FPS players having better observation skills and quicker cognition but I can't remember the exact article. It seems pretty similar to this article IIRC.
 


Now see is something I can back up. In FPSs you have to be on your toes ALWAYS and use constant communication. I could easily write a couple of pages on all of the things you have to practice to become good at lets say.... Halo 3; since that's the game I devoted probably thousands of hours playing.

 

Most of these things apply to most if not all FPSs but teamwork is key and you have to form roles, backup roles, plans, strategize, make mental maps of your environment, make educated guesses, and actually know what's going on around you based on how fast people can run, what team you're playing against, what the score is, and what weapons are on the map and how much ammo each player of the team has.

Of course its..... complicated but after years of playing it all becomes second nature.... Halo 3 is one of the games that changed the very way I think and even to this day I'm glad I spent all of those weeks... months playing that game non stop. 

post #26 of 27

If you guys are going to discuss this further, you should stop using civ as a comparative equivalent to chess

Advance Wars would be a better parallel substitute to chess, than civ. Civ differs too much from chess

 

post #27 of 27

I definitely agree with you regarding the negative studies about gaming! It might be that gaming does not deserve such a widespread negative reputation as recent studies show that they might actually have some health benefits. One example is where computer games are being used as an effective form of physiotherapy for children with cystic fibrosis. And we don't have to forget that some games are great to promote the parent-child interaction! Such as here :http://www.element14.com/community/community/experts/benheck 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvin View Post



 

I'd say cultural bias due to the lack of boomer participation in gaming.

Chess, for better or worse, is widely seen as an intellectual pursuit even though it's an exercise in memorization and recall for players at most skill levels.

Video gaming on the other hand is still seen as child's play regardless of the actual demographics and merits. It's also portrayed as a scourge of modern society, and functions as a key indicator of sustained immaturity for modern males in their twenties and thirties. (Since it's not PC to talk about the causes of male immaturity, the media latches on to the effects instead.)

Negative studies and articles about gaming get money and print space. The more absurdist the story, the more interest there is. Not so much for studies and articles about chess players, unless they tie into how the world is going to get overrun by AI robots.
 



 

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