What's the next step up from the Audioengine A5's - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiml3ss 

What are some good stands that work well with the Onix? I have custom built ones for my A5's but they are probably the worst craftsmanship anyone has ever seen.  At least I tried! 

 

Preferably something that isn't too expensive. Obviously I'll try to buy used. 

The higher quality Sanus stands may work. They sell for around $120-300. I'm not sure what Tyler Acoustics charges for their stands, but they sure are pretty. Before buying anything, you'll probably want to either contact AV123, or find a manual for the Onix Ref 1 so you know what the recommended height is.
 

It's all about power really.

The reason your Dad's old Luxman receiver  & Polkaudio speakers sounded so much better than the Audioengines is because they put out ~ 3 times as much power and move far more air. Particularly in the low bass where you 'feel' as much as 'hear' the music. A5 says they go down to 50Hz which would be very impressive in such a small box but I bet your Dad's would go all the way down to 20Hz. Instead of a small sweet spot a big system will fill the room. Desktop monitors will not.

So you have to decide what it is you want from your proposed upgrade. 

If you want a big sound you need a powerful amp (~200W) and at least 7" speaker drivers.

If you just want something that might sound better than what you have and stick with the small scale then consider the ADAM A3X if you listen to more acoustic/vocal/classical and KRK Rokit 5 if you prefer electronic/dance/pop. Be warned though, like other posters have commented, if you listen on real monitors and your signal quality is poor you will know about it because that is what monitors are designed to do.

Excellent choice with the Reference 1 MKIIs. They are beautiful speakers and sound amazing.

The only speakers I've heard under $1000 that I felt compete with the Ref 1s are the Ascend Sierra-1, but they retail for over $950 and are very difficult to find used. Even then I found the choice hard as I felt the Ref 1s were more detailed but the Sierra-1s were smoother at the top and less bright. The Sierra-1s would have cost twice as much as the Ref 1s cost me and that was a no-no.

I preferred the Ref 1s (as well as the Sierra-1s) over the Era Design 5 and Paradigm Studio 20s, among others. With proper amplification the Adam A7s didn't come close; the Audioengine A5s were utterly destroyed.

Also the Ref 1s will play down to about 40Hz cleanly. If you want to really leave your dad's system in the dust I'd recommend grabbing a used REL or SVS SB12-Plus subwoofer when you get the chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiml3ss 

I'm glad I chose the onix's! They seem to have universal praise.



I am definitely going to be getting a sub in the near future. I do listen to 30-40% hip hop so it's a must. What about the HSU brand? I heard there pretty good. I'll check out the subs you listed. Can the ones listed go pretty low?

Thanks!

They'll go down to about 22Hz without much trouble. Sub 20Hz extension is not likely. I am speaking of the REL Strata III and the SVS SB12-Plus. The reason they don't extend very well is because they tend to employ large drivers in (relatively) small, sealed cabinets. They tend to be extremely good with music and just okay for movies. The gotcha is that the SB12-Plus is discontinued (like all legends), and the Strata III has an MSRP in the mid-1500s (used they go for the high 500s to the low 700s).

You will get usable output down to 18Hz and below with (considerably) larger, ported designs. However ported designs are very expensive to implement with control and articulation. Generally under $1000 you can expect them to be extremely good with movies and just okay for music (just the inverse of sealed subs).

The HSU subs are very good, especially their entry-level subwoofers, but I feel the SB12-Plus outclasses their subwoofers from similar price points ($600-800) in both sonics and finish. Epik and Rythmik also make very good subwoofers for the money that are usually well-received and well-rounded for HT and music.

If you want the best-in-class many consider the JL Audio Fathom series to be the best subwoofer series under tens of thousands of dollars. Their performance is legendary in both music and movies with great extension without compromises.

If you're handy with DIY you can actually build a subwoofer that will perform very close to or better than the multi-thousand-dollar Fathoms for well under a grand from partsexpress.

22Hz extension is more than fine for music, though. 20Hz and below is mostly employed in Low Frequency Effects for movies (rumbling and stuff) and is used in music almost 0% of the time. So I still recommend a sealed design for amazing music performance (speed, articulation) with a reasonable size and price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld 

It's all about power really.

 

The reason your Dad's old Luxman receiver  & Polkaudio speakers sounded so much better than the Audioengines is because they put out ~ 3 times as much power and move far more air. Particularly in the low bass where you 'feel' as much as 'hear' the music. A5 says they go down to 50Hz which would be very impressive in such a small box but I bet your Dad's would go all the way down to 20Hz. Instead of a small sweet spot a big system will fill the room. Desktop monitors will not.

 

If you want a big sound you need a powerful amp (~200W) and at least 7" speaker drivers.

Sound pressure level and sound quality are two entirely different things. It takes a hell of a lot more than a big amp and some big drivers to achieve truly great sound. A 30W pure Class A amp paired with some efficient speakers could sound superb. If you're talking just deep bass than yes, you need a strong amp and a large driver, multiple drivers, or some engineering tricks like a transmission line enclosure, there's no getting around that.

However, once you get above 40Hz which is where the vast majority of musical information is, how big your woofer is and how much amp you've got is largely irrelevant. Quality is far more important than quantity. I can't count the number of two-way monitors that will send big 5-driver floor standers home crying (except when asked to reproduce 25Hz from a synthesizer).

Matching the speaker to the room is also critical. In smaller spaces, stand-mounted two-way monitors will outperform floorstanders that are out of their element pretty much every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiml3ss 
So for music you would still recommend the SVS and the REL over the HSU and JB's?

Absolutely. The SB12-Plus and Strata III are very close, with the slight edge to the REL. I have seen many Strata's go used but have yet to see a used SB12-Plus for sale -- I guess they must be keepers.

The REL is definitely the best you can get for music from a value perspective. I like the SVS a lot because it has a ton of features that no other subwoofer near its price point offers, including room compensation and parametric EQ. The finish is beautiful and there are a lot of small touches, like magnetic grill covers.

If you can't find a used SB12-Plus or Strata III, the HSU VTF-3 is also a very good choice. Also if you're scouring the used market a Martin Logan Grotto, Descent, or Depth would be an excellent choice. The Descent and Depth in particular would give the REL a run for its money for music -- they are triple-drivers that go low loudly and cleanly with speed and authority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3X0 

Also if you're scouring the used market a Martin Logan Grotto, Descent, or Depth would be an excellent choice. The Descent and Depth in particular would give the REL a run for its money for music -- they are triple-drivers that go low loudly and cleanly with speed and authority.

I'm a fan of most REL products and SVS I think makes pretty good stuff, but I can't recommend Martin Logan. Every ML sub I've heard as been a huge disappointment. A particularly bad example was a Descent in a very high-end, treated room paired with Avalon Eidolons. The Descent in this application flat out sucked. It couldn't keep up, it called attention to itself like it had a glowing neon sign on it saying "Look at me! I'm not blending with the speakers AT ALL!", and it struggled to achieve even a moderately realistic volume without sounding like it was bottoming out. One of the worst subs I've ever heard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBSC 
I'm a fan of most REL products and SVS I think makes pretty good stuff, but I can't recommend Martin Logan. Every ML sub I've heard as been a huge disappointment. A particularly bad example was a Descent in a very high-end, treated room paired with Avalon Eidolons. The Descent in this application flat out sucked. It couldn't keep up, it called attention to itself like it had a glowing neon sign on it saying "Look at me! I'm not blending with the speakers AT ALL!", and it struggled to achieve even a moderately realistic volume without sounding like it was bottoming out. One of the worst subs I've ever heard.

I only had some experience with a Grotto and I felt that the synergy was good with my Reference 1s, but it didn't blend as well with the Magnepan 1.6QRs I had before. I think they'd mate well with the Reference 1s but I do like my SB12-Plus better. The Grotto I had didn't call attention to itself with the Ref 1s but did with my 1.6QRs.

In which case it might be best to hold out for the SVS or REL since they integrate well with almost anything.

Quite. However the point still stands.

I'm prepared to bet that if I applied a low pass filter which modeled the roll off characteristics of the AudioEngine A5 moofer to the OP's Dad's system and sat him in the sweet spot of both then there wouldn't be a lot of difference in terms of perceived  audio quality. He might even prefer the A5s.

What makes the difference is the balance and weight from the bass which adds gravitas to the music. It's always going to be a bigger sound than what you will get from a bookshelf or desktop sized enclosure. No matter how loud you play or how much you pay.

That's why the OP's (& I suspect that of many other audiophiles atm) central dilemna is less about which particular brands to buy but a choice between a traditional full range floorstander system or a combination of  mini monitors and a sub woofer.

Nowadays it is relatively easy and inexpensive to beat the pants off his Dad's old system in every department except the crucial bottom two octaves and he will never do that convincingly without a relatively large driver and a powerful amplifier somewhere in his system.  

I'm not personally familiar with any of the components but, like I say above, I strongly suspect you will prefer that to your Dad's except in the bottom end.

If you listen to classical or acoustic/folk music a lot or prefer low listening levels then that might not bother you much and if so best of luck. Otherwise I'd look for a way of dividing your budget up differently so you could afford a sub or larger loudspeakers.

I think you are proportionally overspending on your choice of DAC anyway. I'm loath to criticise a company who's products I am unfamilar with but there is something not quite right about a company that offers DACs in a selection of ranges based on 'flavours' or audio colouration introduced. All DACs should be transparent not 'Musical' or 'Warm' or 'Neutral'. After all, once audio is in the digital domain it is a trivial matter to manipulate it in any manner you wish anyway. Why buy a DAC with a designed in 'flavour' you can never change?