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Power Cables... Really? - Page 8  

post #106 of 417

Because who does'nt want a cool looking cable, you know!!!

post #107 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesL View Post

 

 

 

 

You made some interesting points... 

So there is no proper way to measure the performance of a power cable, right?  So do the manufacturers know what they're doing, or are they just putting fancy parts with fancy advertising and a fancy price tag?

How do we know a $2 monoprice power cable isn't -better- than a more expensive cable?

How do you know that shielding is better than no shielding, silver better than copper, copper better than brass, rhodium better than nickel, coconuts and tourmaline better than nothing? 

 

Yes, people believed that the earth was flat, because that was what they perceived and made the most sense.

Scientists; physicists, astronomers.... aristotle, galileo, copernicus, and dozens other were the one who brought theories and proofs to the table.  Audiophiles aren't bringing any sort of proof as of yet.  - "this is what I hear(perceive) so it must be true, despite what anyone else says"

Scientists are still trying to explain why we perceive something different than the reality, but are met with deaf ears.  

 

You also brought up that nordost study.  The opinion that the study seems to be heavily flawed w/o much credibility is besides the point.  You said we should keep an open mind, but how can you put faith in that single study when you turn a blind eye to hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite? 

 

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, I really do..  but you seem to be trying to prove something by completely ignoring other relevant facts.


You have also made some good points: it is very difficult to say which is better: shielded vs. unshielded, copper vs. silver... My guess is that they all work but in different ways.

You are also right that there is a lot of overpriced stuff. A $1000 is not necessarily better than a $20 one, especially if the mannufacturer of the $1000 doesn't tell much about what is being used in the power cord because it is supposedly a "secret".


Measuring something the wrong way for a thousand times doesn't make it necesseraly the right measurement. All that is necessary is one good measurement to steer things the right way and this what Nordost and Acuity are trying to do.

 

Science is evolving. Ignoring a new promising research is ignoring relevant facts.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haloxt View Post

JamesL, how many attempts in the past have been done to measure differences primarily in the time domain? And can you tell us what's so flawed about what nordost and acuity are doing?


I totally agree, this is the first attempt to do such a thing. I am really surprised that people are discarding such a thing just because they don't like the results.

 

In fact, if people read carefully Nordost and Acuity research, they will find that they are also trying to quantify the real difference between a cheap CD player and a top DAC such as DCS. I think that they are doing a huge service to the audiophile community as we are heading up to a new way to measure differences that are hardly perceptible in the frequency domain with simplistic tools such as RMAA.

 

This reminds about something I have noticed. When using my laptop as a transport, I have always felt there was a difference between battery power and using the SMPS power supply. I did RMAA measurements (in the frequency domain) and I found zero difference.
If I had an AP measurement device, I would have probably been able to measure a difference in jitter (time domain). Here (http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/cambridge_audio_azur_dacmagic_da_converter/index3.html), you can see that the jitter measurements of the DACMagic change from around 150ps to 2000ps depending on how the same laptop is use (battery or plugged to the wall wart).

 

All the blabla I just said can be summed up to the following: "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

post #108 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr. Seraphim View Post

X^n! (and from personal experience, dang it!)

 

I haven't found a good measuring system that explains why good aftermarket AC power cords make the difference that they do. (Or good cabling in general!) The difference has always been tangible to me--sadly for my wallet, happily for my ears. We just haven't figured out a way to measure what it is that makes the difference.  

 

Similarly, I haven't seen any measurements to prove or disprove what folks like Bybee and their Bybee Quantum Purifiers actually do. It seems like anyone who has applied Bybee's purifiers to their music systems put their money on the line to keep 'em. Again, no one to the best of my knowledge has measured the difference these make in their systems. The military has put the technology to good use and presumably it's effective, and measurable. Apparently, multi-meters, o'scopes, and AP analyzers that us common folk have at our disposal may not have the resolution (or measuring capabilities) to be able to effectively measure what's happening, not to mention the ability to accurately correlate the results with the apparent improvement in sound quality.  

 

What does seem to correlate are the effects on SQ including, improved resolution, better bass, expanded soundstage, increased instrumental delineation and three dimensional image outlines. These seem to be some of the most common descriptors of a good quality AC power cord. I'm just sorry that not everyone hears the difference because the improvements really make my toes tap, and my head bob a little better, and I get goose bumps more frequently. I'm happier listening to music with 'em in my system than without. I enjoy the music more with 'em.   

  

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

To me proof that power cables work on my rig is the smile I have listening to music. Anymore than that is a headache.


I totally agree, whatever the reason might be, I keep using good cables and power cords simply because it helps me enjoy the music much more.

post #109 of 417

What is amusing is that some of those who post things about power cords and interconnects being crazy purchases also are headphone setup owners. Ask most AVERAGE people if they would ever consider buying an expensive set of headphones with a dedicated headphone amp and DAC and they'll look at that same person like THEY were crazy. The level of insanity is always relative.

 

For the record, I also thought power cables were looney. Then I tried a Wireworld Electra Reference on my preamp and...um...hmmm...DARN IT! Would I ever dream of spending some of the silly money I've seen on some of the cables out there? Heck no! Do I now think power cords can make an audible change with some gear? Yeah. Is it a BETTER audible change? Jury is out.

post #110 of 417

Sometimes we are lucky enough to have gear that power cables make a difference.

post #111 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

To me proof that power cables work on my rig is the smile I have listening to music. Anymore than that is a headache.

That's fine if that works for you... 
I can say that my bacon and eggs makes me happy when shaped into a smiley face, but I'm not going to try convince other people that it makes it taste better unless I want to put the effort(and I don't) into supporting that fact.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haloxt View Post

JamesL, how many attempts in the past have been done to measure differences primarily in the time domain? And can you tell us what's so flawed about what nordost and acuity are doing?

 

Since when do I need to experiment and gather data to support everything I don't approve of?  I can say a dish tastes bad without having made it before and I can say a movie was bad without having made one before.. 

 

The report is more ambiguous and missing more information than some of the weekly lab reports I did for my freshman physics classes.

If the experiment was done properly, the report certainly doesn't reflect that.  

 

What is the point of criticizing one sentence that starts and ends with "the opinion that... is besides the point", without recognizing any other part of my post?  If you're arguing for the sake of arguing, I don't want to waste any more of your time.. 

post #112 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoldBuster View Post

What is amusing is that some of those who post things about power cords and interconnects being crazy purchases also are headphone setup owners. Ask most AVERAGE people if they would ever consider buying an expensive set of headphones with a dedicated headphone amp and DAC and they'll look at that same person like THEY were crazy. The level of insanity is always relative.

 

For the record, I also thought power cables were looney. Then I tried a Wireworld Electra Reference on my preamp and...um...hmmm...DARN IT! Would I ever dream of spending some of the silly money I've seen on some of the cables out there? Heck no! Do I now think power cords can make an audible change with some gear? Yeah. Is it a BETTER audible change? Jury is out.


Well said MoldBuster, the level of insanity is relative

 

Some of my friends think it is insane to spend more than €100 on headphones, let alone €1000+ on headphone amps (they don't even understand why you would need such a set-up for headphones). But so far, all my non-audiophile friends changed their minds once they listened to my headphone system. While most of them are not going to pursue such a route (they have other hobbies), they understand however that a well set-up headphone system is radically different from what from most headphone and speaker systems. One thing they keep repeating is that it sounds like the real thing or even better than the real thing (as you don't always listen to live music in ideal conditions).

 

To me the power cords, along with other tweaks, helped me get closer to what I expect from reproduced music at home.

post #113 of 417

"Since when do I need to experiment and gather data to support everything I don't approve of?  I can say a dish tastes bad without having made it before and I can say a movie was bad without having made one before.. "

 

Did I say you have to? I am just asking how often have tests been done the way being done in the case we're discussing. You say tests have been done in the past, I just asked how many were done testing the time domain. You can say a number, or a percentage, you don't have to experiment or gather data.

 

"The report is more ambiguous and missing more information than some of the weekly lab reports I did for my freshman physics classes.

If the experiment was done properly, the report certainly doesn't reflect that. "

 

Two words: preliminary report.

 

"What is the point of criticizing one sentence that starts and ends with "the opinion that... is besides the point", without recognizing any other part of my post?  If you're arguing for the sake of arguing, I don't want to waste any more of your time.. "

 

I did raise a question about your claim that we're putting "blind faith in that single study", in the form of asking just how relevant those "hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite" are to the nordost experiments. To prove the opposite of what nordost is doing, you have to test the same thing and get the opposite conclusion. You must test the time domain. Can you tell me what percentage of those hundreds of tests have tested the thing nordost is testing? If it is not testing the same thing, it is not trying to prove the opposite. I hope you understand, I don't in any way want you to do any experiments to prove anything.

post #114 of 417

JamesL I see your point, but you make a simple component like a power cable more cumbersome than it really is. If you are trying to save money and only purchase on proven facts and not what sounds good to you it will not be a fun hobby. Power cables are easy to deal with. I would first define the strengths and weakness's of your gear and find a character in a power cable to compliment your rig. For example: My tube amp can get a little too warm and fuzzy for my taste. I made a power cable with SPC and Rhodium connectors to deal with that. I learned the characteristics of the different metals used to make power cables and made one to suit my needs.

post #115 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

If you are trying to save money and only purchase on proven facts and not what sounds good to you it will not be a fun hobby.


Really? Because I'm having an absolute ball, and I've no interest in power cables. If you can't enjoy music without a fancy power cable, maybe you're focused too much on the gear.

 

If you enjoy building them that's different. But not everyone wants to build their own fancy cables for their own enjoyment, or for what are marginal (or non-existent) sonic benefits.

post #116 of 417

Pre ebay audiophiles had to buy from the named brands who found that they could charge silly prices for their cables. Now with ebay not is it easier to buy the parts to make your own, it is also easier to buy cables made with the audiophile in mind, but not at silly prices.

post #117 of 417

Yes I build my own cables. I do borrow a cable now and then from a retailer to make sure I'm on the right track. The higher end your gear gets, the more a good power cable will benefit your gear. There are a few companies that prefer a certain type of power cables. Ask Gary Koh of Genesis Advanced Technologies? He makes speakers that cost over 200K. I auditioned a demonstration of one of his DIYed TT power cables. It was at a Pacific Northwest Audio Society meeting I was invited to.

post #118 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

He makes speakers that cost over 200K.


Good for him. I could too, though I don't even know how to start. The price would justify my amateurism, I expect.

 

Heck, I'll charge 300K. Now who builds high-end speakers, huh? You better get a new power cable for these, because anything under 10k is going to sound like mud.

post #119 of 417

Point being, after a certain point with your gear, a good power cable becomes a necessary piece of equipment.

post #120 of 417

I am interested in getting http://www.amazon.com/Live-Wire-Prong-Power-Adapter/dp/B001G7FFVU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1276974670&sr=8-4

 

41pI2eA%2Bg5L._SS500_.jpg

 

But my ears aren't that sensitive to power cables, or my power cables just aren't that much better than my various stock 14 awg power cables. I asked an aftermarket cable manufacturer if they could make a 2" cable for me with high quality copper connectors, but they said no, because it would break from flexing. I theorize that maybe it is because they know no cable cables sounds better and don't want me to find out. Could someone tell me if this sounds better than high quality power cables?

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