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HD600 cable upgrade - worth it? - Page 10

post #136 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge8989 View Post

 

you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. lmfao look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.

 

wa3+_internal.jpg


 


great post

post #137 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post


 


To me it is not practical. Have not found any DBT booths at the local Hi-Fi shops. DBT has never been important to me with my gear.


If you still have the original cable, you listen to the original and the upgrade, in such a way you do not know which is which and then get a mate to swap them around for you in such a way that you cannot see or tell which is which. You them say if it is cable A or B you are listening to. Do that about 20 times and you have a simple ABX test.

post #138 of 242


 

Originally Posted by Ruffle View Post

Cables are voodoo/snake oil IMO.  I don't mind using them and won't part with them, it's a fun thing to do if you like your headphones.

 

But I can't vouch to say they make an ounce of difference. It's placebo. When you first get them, you'll think wow. But after a while when you have a chance to listen, you'll realize the stock cables and upgraded sound the same.


Every poster here should only speak for himself. I don't share your specific «cables = snake oil» experience, so please don't speak for me!


 

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

I used to own the HD-600 and HD-650. I bought both the Cardas and Blue Dragon replacement cables. I tried both headphones with both cables as well as the two stock cables. There was absolutely no difference between the four cables on either headphone, though several amps.

There never has been - and never will be - a scrap of evidence supporting cable "differences." This has been an ongoing fight for more than 30 years and nothing has ever been established to lend credibility to these claims.
"I hear a difference" is not evidence. This is true because no one can hear a difference if they cannot see the cable. If anyone disagrees, the only way you will settle this argument is if you provide valid test results from scientific equipment or show that you can pass a blind test. Dancing around those is intellectually dishonest.

If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. If you can't hear it blind, it doesn't exist.


Dear Uncle Eric... I'm sure you know the rules of this forum vey well. You're just trying (again) how far you can go until the moderators feel the need for intervention, right? (Keyword DBT-Free Forum)
 

 

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post


Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


The same goes for everyone else. There's a sub-forum for a scientific approach to audio (and you know it).

 

I wonder if Sennheiser have done blind testing of cables. If they have then they have gone with a cheap to make but perfectly serviceable cable, such as the cables that do as well as far more expensive ones in blind tests. Or else they have used computers and found that found that measurements have no correlation with subjectively perceived sound quality.


After all Sennheiser has taken care for a good cable on their current flagship. That doesn't mean it doesn't get even better, though. I own an expensive HD 800 aftermarket cable – the DHC Clone – which is too dull for my taste and my modded HD 800, thus I like the stock cable better. But also one that is a better match to my ears – the Silver Dragon.

 

.Originally Posted by eucariote View Post
 

They're artifacts of multisensory integration- which brings values values and even audio hallucinations from other senses.  They're not conscious or willful - nobody is immune.  The standard control (in all publishable scientific observations) for minimizing the confounding influence from other senses is with blind tests. Or cutting out your thalamus.

 

Originally Posted by goober-george View Post

Perception is reality? And everyone's perception is different? You also can't trust the human senses, like when people report a crime scene and describe the criminal 50 different ways.

 

You know, the rule is there for a reason. Please respect it as well as you can! It's annoying for people searching for specific advice to be bombed with ideologic credos instead of personal experience, which this place is made for. You can use your well-known playground for exchanging the former.

 

 

Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post


It's not practical because it's not important? Or it's not practical because Hi-Fi shops wouldn't dare cut into their profit margins by convincing shoppers that their own high-end wares are snake oil? Or what? Why is it not practical?


Blind tests are time-consuming and laborious, and they're not necessary for selling cables, as you may know very well. I don't do blind test with cables myself, nor with any other gear.

 

Originally Posted by kite7 View Post

Question, if cables make a difference then why is it that the wiring inside amplifiers and DACs thin and appears to be nothing special? Wouldn't that be a bottleneck?


They're not really a bottleneck, just another source of (perceived) signal degradation. And in contrast to interconnects and headphone cables they're not easily swappable. That's the reason why I (and I guess most others) renounce caring about them. Just as little as the wiring used in the recording studio. Apparently this generous approach works for me and many others. I have recabled a Stax SRM-T1, though, with full success. It sounded clearly smoother and more refined with the new (homemade) silver/copper magnet-wire cables. Note that this amp uses very long internal cables, so recabling particularly pays off! Of course I have to further live with the PCBs there, but you can't have the perfect sound anyway, so I just care for what's influenceable, not for the impossible.

 

Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post

Cables (and other audio equipment) require switching so memory is an issue. They all do the same thing, so special needs are nonexistent. They have no published specs except those like capacitance which may or may not have any bearing on audible sound, unlike computer specs which tell relatively how well it performs at what it's supposed to do.


In other words: you haven't experienced real differences from cables... That would have been a simple and clear way to put it. (Ideologies are boring!)
 

 

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post


If you still have the original cable, you listen to the original and the upgrade, in such a way you do not know which is which and then get a mate to swap them around for you in such a way that you cannot see or tell which is which. You them say if it is cable A or B you are listening to. Do that about 20 times and you have a simple ABX test.


You create the rules for evaluating cables, but fail to observe the well-known rules around here. I for one evaluate and audition cables under real-world conditions to see if they fulfill my expectations under real-world conditions. The same procedure as with every other category of audio gear.

 

 

And finally my recommendation to the thread starter. With my now experience, in your shoes, I would probably invest the money in a source, amp or headphone upgrade – simply because it offers higher value for the money. Cable upgrades are the last station after the rest of the chain is close (enough) to the own sonic ideal. That said, I have upgraded the cables on both HD 600 and HD 650, and it was worth it to me. But that was before the HD 800 / T 1 / LCD-2 era, when the old Sennheisers represented a sonic characteristic coser to my ideal than most other headphones. If you insist in a new cable: Zu Mobius and Silver Dragon were my favorites.
.


Edited by JaZZ - 6/29/10 at 4:14am
post #139 of 242

JaZZ, I have not created any rules as you accuse me of "You create the rules for evaluating cables, but fail to observe the well-known rules around here." I was making a suggestion in keeping with the direction that this thread has taken. BIG POPPA is not bound to do what I say and for you to suggest such is a nonsense. 

 

With regards to forum rules, fair enough, sorry to the OP for drifting into DBT in this thread. But to answer your original question is it worth it, the answer is no for reasons we are not allowed to discuss here.


Edited by Prog Rock Man - 6/28/10 at 12:14pm
post #140 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

With regards to forum rules, fair enough, sorry to the OP for drifting into DBT in this thread. But to answer your original question is it worth it, the answer is no for reasons we are not allowed to discuss here.


Is it ever really a discussion? 

post #141 of 242

Yes I do have the original, 650 cable, and a few others. I listen to my gear more then enough to know which cable I am listening to. I am not a casual listener. Averaging 3-4 hours a day 7 days a week. Do know the strengths and weakness' of my rig. ABX and DBT's will keep me from enjoying the music I desire. Not afraid to upgrade my Senn cable. That is why I have a few to choose from.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post




If you still have the original cable, you listen to the original and the upgrade, in such a way you do not know which is which and then get a mate to swap them around for you in such a way that you cannot see or tell which is which. You them say if it is cable A or B you are listening to. Do that about 20 times and you have a simple ABX test.

post #142 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post

In other words: you haven't experienced real differences from cables... That would have been a simple and clear way to put it. (Ideologies are boring!)


That's not what I said at all, and I'm really surprised that that's what you got out of it.

 

I said that, unlike other electronics, there's no way to reliably and consistently spot real differences in the performance of a cable. Because audio memory and bias gets in the way of AB comparisons, they all serve the same function, and because the specs tell us nothing.

 

Purely subjective differences (like you're mentioning in your response, rather than real differences) are a separate beast entirely, and something I didn't touch on in my post because the post was meant to compare the need of blind tests in cables to POPPA's proposed blind tests in other electronics. Other electronics are not as affected by subjective differences because most of their differences are proven real.

 

POPPA, you don't have to DBT every time you listen to music. Just once (well, once over 20 tests) to prove you can hear differences. If that's going to get in the way of your future enjoyment, that's almost an admission that it'll ruin the illusion for you.


Edited by Head Injury - 6/28/10 at 12:59pm
post #143 of 242

That is not mine. My amp is very modded from Jack.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge8989 View Post

 

you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. lmfao look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.

 

wa3+_internal.jpg


 
post #144 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

That is not mine. My amp is very modded from Jack.


Pics plzzz.

 

I'm fully expecting an amp with quarter-inch thick cables running throughout, so don't disappoint 

post #145 of 242

Never seen 1/4 inch cables? What gauge is that? How much power is that designed for? Is that cable specifically designed for the load of the headphone amp? Do you know what type of wire Jack uses for his amps?

post #146 of 242

It was a joke, hence the smiley (this one ---> 

post #147 of 242

Yeah I can get a little sarcastic myself. It is all good Head Injury.

post #148 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

Never seen 1/4 inch cables? What gauge is that? How much power is that designed for? Is that cable specifically designed for the load of the headphone amp? Do you know what type of wire Jack uses for his amps?


Be that as it may, I do find it interesting that one would assume that one bottle neck makes any other bottleneck immaterial and without influence on the overall effect.

post #149 of 242



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge8989 View Post

 

you better toss out your "crappy" woo audio 3+ too then. lmfao look at the cheap thin wiring esp. at the rca connectors.  Seriously though, this guy's argument always ends up being how experienced he is going to his little meets and how great his setup/hearing is so he can hear the difference between cables.

 

wa3+_internal.jpg


 

I'd much prefer the wire (Thin cheap wire as you called it) to a RCA jack that is "TRACE SOLDERED" to a circuit board!!.... I'll bet you some after market HD phone cables that the wire in your picture of the woo is a silver Teflon coated for carrying the signal. The other wires are probably copper teflon or heavier pvc coated wires  that carry the power from the transformer/s and tube sockets etc....This is JMO,(It's the way my amp builder "Builds") but give me point to point wired equipment any day over your circuit boards with most components "Pinned" to the board and don't forget about all that "Trace soldering" carrying your important power and source info.......A good engineer designs and lays out his wire with its different conductors and gauges for a reason, Don't you think??.... Woo Makes some fine "stuff" from what I've seen,heard and read on several post......I'm still on your side BIG POPPA!,.... to me the truth is in what each of us HEAR!  Call me crazy if you must, just don't call me late to dinner or a HEAD-FI MEET! 

 


Edited by 9pintube - 6/28/10 at 1:37pm
post #150 of 242

First of all, there are some that say a cable swap makes no difference and it is some kind of psych game.  There are those that will say given the circumstances of a cable swap, one could never completely tell the difference.  My question is, if I take your example that the conditions of swapping cables does not permit one's mind from computing a difference, how does one tell the difference from swapping headphones? 

 

Well, and this is in response to the original Poster's question. I have an hd600 and I did get an aftermarket cable and it is the SAA Equinox(now called the E series).  It opens up the headphone and gave me a much better presentation with better lows and smoother highs.

 

My story:  I bought an HD600 then listened for several months, decided to invest in a HP cable and bought a HD650 Senn cable then listened for several months, wanted another upgrade and purchased the Stefan Audio Art Equinox...amazing difference both times.  But I loved the SAA Equinox the most.

 

Anyhow, so months more go buy and along comes the HD800.  I bit and decided to sell off the HD600 w/Equinox.  Long and short....while I love the HD800(that's another topic in and of itself) I missed the presentation that the 600 kit offered, so I purchased a new hd600.  I let it break in but something was missing from my memory(even though there are those armchair head-fi psychologists that say I have no audio memory)....off I went to purchase another SAA Equinox....it arrived and .... oh yeah, It was like slipping on an old pair of broken in jeans.  One thing I will say to keep the conversation balanced, is the Equinox is a bit microphonic.

 

Lastly, the SAA Equinox also offers a visual improvement. 

 

Hey....it isn't voodoo....it's my ears and I hear a huge difference.

My name is Drumonron and yes, cables DO make a difference.(sitting down now)

 

Over to you Bob.


Edited by Drumonron - 6/28/10 at 1:40pm
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