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HD600 cable upgrade - worth it? - Page 8

post #106 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

This is where Uncle Eric and I disagree. With my gear I can tell a difference with cables. Especially Senn cables. He prefers scientific evidence. I prefer the smile on my face between what works and doesn't. I say tomato, Uncle Eric says tomatoe. No big deal.


Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?

post #107 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noumenon View Post


Exactly, who would believe that Sennheiser would spend R&D $$$ to such effect only to undermine everything by using a subpar cable. If the cable mattered THAT much Sennheiser would supply a better cable and tack on the cost to the HP.

You have to remember though, Sennheiser is a company and like all companies, it's all about the bottom line. I'm not saying that they would use a subpar cable to go with headphones they spent a lot of R&D on BUT that doesn't mean they would go for the "best" cable they have available. 

 

Maybe... just maybe they went for the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality? Just because something isn't bad doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives out there. 
 

post #108 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Spade View Post



You have to remember though, Sennheiser is a company and like all companies, it's all about the bottom line. I'm not saying that they would use a subpar cable to go with headphones they spent a lot of R&D on BUT that doesn't mean they would go for the "best" cable they have available. 

 

Maybe... just maybe they went for the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality? Just because something isn't bad doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives out there. 
 


But measuring sound quality is subjective, so how do you get "the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality?" 

post #109 of 242
Well, that's what I suspect, ...that Sennheiser went with a cable "that didn't hinder the sound quality", ...so that if the stock cable "didn't hinder the sound quality", how could an after market cable make the SQ better? It would have to have added SQ not already present, which doesn't make sense.



The other point is that Sennheiser doesn't sell cheap HP, so if the concept of a better wire made sense, they would have included it and made the same profit margin off of it, by adding it to the cost. In other words the "better cable" would have been another item for Senn to make money off of.
Edited by Noumenon - 6/27/10 at 12:14pm
post #110 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post


But measuring sound quality is subjective, so how do you get "the cheapest cable they could get that didn't hinder the sound quality?" 

You get a very high quality cable and either have a set group of people listen or you do it through the use of computers. Make graphs of sound waves and whatnot with the cable and gradually move down the line until you get to a cable that starts to cause more and more distortion than the one before it. 

 

You stop at the cheapest cable that causes the least amount of audible distortion. 

 

But I'm sure they would use this method to test other things that take different materials like tires for race cars... oil...etc.

post #111 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Spade View Post



You get a very high quality cable and either have a set group of people listen or you do it through the use of computers. Make graphs of sound waves and whatnot with the cable and gradually move down the line until you get to a cable that starts to cause more and more distortion than the one before it. 

 

You stop at the cheapest cable that causes the least amount of audible distortion. 

 

But I'm sure they would use this method to test other things that take different materials like tires for race cars... oil...etc.


I wonder if Sennheiser have done blind testing of cables. If they have then they have gone with a cheap to make but perfectly serviceable cable, such as the cables that do as well as far more expensive ones in blind tests. Or else they have used computers and found that found that measurements have no correlation with subjectively perceived sound quality.

post #112 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post




Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


dont even bother arguing with him; he believes in power cables.

 

Ive briefly tried ALO Cryoed silver(~$400 cable) v. stock on HD650 amped with an isabellina hpa and honestly couldn't tell them apart.  Maybe if I listened a bit longer but the difference must have been <5%.  Definitely not worth more than the cost of the headphones.  The amp sounds incredible though :]

post #113 of 242

Just asking a few questions, thats all......

post #114 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
There never has been - and never will be - a scrap of evidence supporting cable "differences." This has been an ongoing fight for more than 30 years and nothing has ever been established to lend credibility to these claims.

"I hear a difference" is not evidence. This is true because no one can hear a difference if they cannot see the cable.

If anyone disagrees, the only way you will settle this argument is if you provide valid test results from scientific equipment or show that you can pass a blind test. Dancing around those is intellectually dishonest.

If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. If you can't hear it blind, it doesn't exist.

 


I wondering … does this placebo effect work for everybody, or only on some people? if I hear differences is placebo - but I can easily say that if you don’t hear a difference is because you don’t want to hear a difference, and is placebo. or are you immune to placebo? “I don’t hear a difference” is not evidence either.
 
At the end of the day personally I’m more interested in what a difference I hear than whether a machine will says it makes a difference or not. You don’t - fair enough.
I don’t deny that in some circumstances placebo maybe plays a possibility factor, and that some cable company may sell snake oil (Monster Cable to name one, imo), but I will absolutely not accept that every cable is the same, or make no difference. that is just not true. I can assure you the differences I heard in my system with some cables (not all) are very real and worth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

This is where Uncle Eric and I disagree. With my gear I can tell a difference with cables. Especially Senn cables. He prefers scientific evidence. I prefer the smile on my face between what works and doesn't. I say tomato, Uncle Eric says tomatoe. No big deal.


x2

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noumenon View Post
"Facts (?!), pssst,... Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -- Homer J. Simpson.


EXACTLY! ...lol


Edited by Lenni - 6/27/10 at 2:21pm
post #115 of 242

x2 Lenni. 

post #116 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post

I wondering … does this placebo effect work for everybody, or only on some people? if I hear differences is placebo - but I can easily say that if you don’t hear a difference is because you don’t want to hear a difference, and is placebo. or are you immune to placebo? “I don’t hear a difference” is not evidence either.
 


They're artifacts of multisensory integration- which brings values values and even audio hallucinations from other senses.  They're not conscious or willful - nobody is immune.  The standard control (in all publishable scientific observations) for minimizing the confounding influence from other senses is with blind tests.  Or cutting out your thalamus.

post #117 of 242


Quote:

Originally Posted by bridge8989 View Post


dont even bother arguing with him; he believes in power cables.

 

Ive briefly tried ALO Cryoed silver(~$400 cable) v. stock on HD650 amped with an isabellina hpa and honestly couldn't tell them apart.  Maybe if I listened a bit longer but the difference must have been <5%.  Definitely not worth more than the cost of the headphones.  The amp sounds incredible though :]


Funny... that was one cable that I particularly did not like with the HD650's.  Despite the price.  I've heard differences with a few cables .... I've not heard differences with others.  Turns out that the one that I did not like was the most expensive.


Edited by aimlink - 6/27/10 at 7:08pm
post #118 of 242

In medicine (where the term originated), placebo has actually cured disease and alleviated pain, which is the "effect"; it's a very powerful form of suggestion

post #119 of 242


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post




Have you subjected yourself to a blind test, which would be straight forward with interchangeable cables?


To me it is not practical. Have not found any DBT booths at the local Hi-Fi shops. DBT has never been important to me with my gear.

post #120 of 242

Perception is reality? And everyone's perception is different? You also can't trust the human senses, like when people report a crime scene and describe the criminal 50 different ways.


Edited by goober-george - 6/27/10 at 10:25pm
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