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A (better sounding?) alternative to Foobar2000 -OR- A musing in the realm of bit-perfect streaming - Page 3

post #31 of 341

I think it's time for the non-believers to compare foobar Vs Reclock, both in WASAPI exclusive or KS. They don't sound identical, and I'm far from being the only one noticing it.

 

Reclock runs a small audio buffer in realtime priority, and has the most accurate clocking you can get on a PC.


Edited by leeperry - 5/26/10 at 8:32am
post #32 of 341

However some have argued that Reclock is louder thus Loudness-contour factors come into it (Fletcher-Munson is outdated ;)).

They're not arguing that is sounds identical, they're arguing why it doesn't.

post #33 of 341

Reclock is as bit-perfect as can get..You can ask James about it

 

ah well, those threads are sterile by essence, just like w/ cables....believers and non-believers used to slaughter each other in the past century, luckily we've passed that.

 

if you like to listen to mp3 on your ipod, to FLAC in foobar, ulilith, or Reclock...it's a free world!

 

I read you saying in another thread that you thought ASIO4ALL sounded "better" than the built-in ASIO drivers...changed your mind at all? A4A is the pimp daddy of untouched audio to my ears, and there's a forum where audio drivers engineers chitchat...they're all pretty blown away by how well A4A works.


Edited by leeperry - 5/26/10 at 8:57am
post #34 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

However some have argued that Reclock is louder thus Loudness-contour factors come into it (Fletcher-Munson is outdated ;)).

They're not arguing that is sounds identical, they're arguing why it doesn't.



Do you use that on your audio Kiwi?

post #35 of 341

I've been running lillith for a week and think it sounds better than fb w/a4a. Much less demand on resources.

post #36 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

I've been running lillith for a week and think it sounds better than fb w/a4a. Much less demand on resources.



If you were using ASIO4All on both players....the exact same output plugin why would there be a difference unless you are adding some effect in one or the other?

post #37 of 341

This may all be due to placebo effect, but even if it is, so what? Whether it sounds better because the output is actually different or it sounds better because you think it does, the end result is still that it sounds better to you. So, if it sounds better to you, go ahead and use it, you may get more enjoyment out of your music that way!

 

Placebo effect starts becoming a moral issue when unscrupulous vendors take advantage of it in order to sell you incredibly expensive merchandise at huge markups. In that case, exposing the truth behind the snakeoil makes sense. But when comparing various free alternatives to each other, I say let each person use what they enjoy most; whether the enjoyment is the result of physiological differences or merely perceptual ones is largely irrelevant.

post #38 of 341

Placebo effects are negative if either you're selling things based on those placebo effects, OR if the placebo effect makes you think that a negative thing is a positive thing.

 

ASIO4ALL is NOT a good method of audio transportation.  It's a stopgap method, and anyone can tell you that virtual device bridges are not a good way to get things done.  The only 'wonder of coding' here is that they got the virtual device to operate at such a low latency, probably sacrificing quality, and CPU cycles.

post #39 of 341

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

OIC, so all the players sound the same to you...and jitter doesn't exist per se, nor is it audible of course? you're such a lucky guy.

 

I presume that all the opamps/cables and S/PDIF interfaces sound the same too, right?


Jitter exists, but in most modern interfaces isn't nearly enough to be audible.  I believe there's a link to some DBTs in the science sub-forum if you're so inclined.  Still, with good reclocking at the hardware it isn't a big concern.

 

Cables - lack of evidence and nulls out on DBT.

 

opamps - amps in general, if built well, sound the same.  DBT tests have confirmed this in the past, at least for traditional SS implementations.  So unless you're taking a chip that's not suited for the application at all and dropping it in, or the amp itself is not sufficient to drive the cans, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

S/PDIF interfaces - depends on implementation, but if it's halfway decent shouldn't effect the sound.

 

Oh no, an audiophile that requires evidence for claims!  How dare he, heretic! [/sarcasm]

post #40 of 341
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torr View Post


This may all be due to placebo effect, but even if it is, so what? Whether it sounds better because the output is actually different or it sounds better because you think it does, the end result is still that it sounds better to you. So, if it sounds better to you, go ahead and use it, you may get more enjoyment out of your music that way!



 



Placebo effect starts becoming a moral issue when unscrupulous vendors take advantage of it in order to sell you incredibly expensive merchandise at huge markups. In that case, exposing the truth behind the snakeoil makes sense. But when comparing various free alternatives to each other, I say let each person use what they enjoy most; whether the enjoyment is the result of physiological differences or merely perceptual ones is largely irrelevant.






I agree on that. While I find the research efforts of the xxhighend player people quite interesting, I still don't think one should need to pay such an amount for it. As with alot of high end equipment in any media, audio or otherwise. Sometimes it seems like folks pay for the idea of a pinnacle. I'll be doing a methodical dbt later, and I'll post results here. Also, the comments on volume are intriguing, and may explain some of the qualitative aspects I've noticed. But still, my favorite aspect is how it seems faster... More... Moving. And seperated.

Anoher thing, from looking around, I'm thinking perhaps alot of it may be how well the app and it's output synergizes with the dac, and it's possible fluctations on the clock level. Maybe. Hahaha. Again I'm just interested in theorizing, especially when it could lead to, most importantly, the furthering of digital music as an audiophile format.
post #41 of 341

I've been listening to the Stealthplayer for a week now. I like it. I normally use Foobar.

I'm taking it on my laptop to Canjam next week to share.

When I've listened to Stealthplayer for a month or more I will switch back to Foobar and see if there are any noticable differences apparent. It takes time for me.

 

"bits is bits" and "ones and zeros" means nothing without good timing. Sure, you will hear something and recognise it as your fav tune, but oh my, how it sounds when the data is timed right.


Edited by digger945 - 5/26/10 at 6:59pm
post #42 of 341
Originally Posted by Shike View Post

Cables - lack of evidence and nulls out on DBT.

 

opamps - amps in general, if built well, sound the same.  DBT tests have confirmed this in the past, at least for traditional SS implementations.  So unless you're taking a chip that's not suited for the application at all and dropping it in, or the amp itself is not sufficient to drive the cans, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

S/PDIF interfaces - depends on implementation, but if it's halfway decent shouldn't effect the sound.

 

Oh no, an audiophile that requires evidence for claims!  How dare he, heretic! [/sarcasm]

 

Well, "audiophile" has become more of an insult to me...all those moronic sites like computeraudiophile.com have ruined the term IMO. Let's replace it by "audioholic" if you don't mind, this I am...most definitely!

 

so, let's see:

-all the ppl rolling opamps are on meth, right? the differences are placebo huh?

 

-did you compare different cables on headphones? did you recable headphones, ever? did you try say a K701/HD650 w/ different cables? do you honestly believe that all the ppl who hear differences in cables are clueless? or let's say more credule and weak than you?

 

I'm not saying cables would make a drastic difference on speakers in a non-controlled room w/o room EQ...but on headphones, except if you're deaf you will hear differences(and the SQ improvement doesn't have anything to do w/ the price...I clearly agree that the markups are unjustified in the cable world).

 

-so all the ppl hearing differences between S/PDIF interfaces are also prone to placebo? I presume you'd be happy w/ your realtek coax output? it'd be as good as a m2tech hiface, right? all the talk at the end of this white paper about clock accuracy is bs too, right? http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/White%20Paper%20on%20hiFace.pdf

 

some soundcards don't output spot-on frequencies, they just don't...c'est la vie: http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-are-clocks-generated-in-musiland.html

 5,647,218/128= 44,118.9 Hz which confirms the deviation from 44,000 Hz
6,144,177/128= 48,001 Hz which confirms that the sample rate is exact.

 

and http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=40430#p40430

you may end up with a 500ppm error. It is still within USB spec. So we have nothing to complain about. You get what you paid for

 

-did you compare Reclock and foobar in bit-perfect WASAPI/KS? on your K601?


-did you actually compare opamps? are all those "facts" of yours based on real world field experience? or are you just full of certitudes based on what you read on the web?

 

many ppl feel so smart and proud of themselves by "debunking" myths...but my honest advice would be to not fall into excess, doing your homework, and not taking anything for granted...and let us know how it went

 

and you said the P word, how about the opposite..nocebo? some ppl might just as well be able to convince themselves that there's no difference...even if there is

 

I still rest my case that many things in audio cannot be measured...let's say the holy "PRaT", this guy tried to explain why the PRaT sucks on that phone: http://www.stereomojo.com/GoldringDr150headphonesreview.htm

 Attack is fine on the DR150, nothing really worthy to mention about it, but decay, on the other hand, is way too fast on it. Notes tend to sound like they're continually being abruptly cut off and not allowed to end. It's actually pretty noticeable and one of the first things I noticed

 

OK Mr scientist, now explain me how to measure PRaT? why is a cd3k a PRaT killing machine that makes you nod your head silly(and not just to me, mind you) and why are some *** phones boring to death? I'm awaiting your PRaT graphs btw 


Edited by leeperry - 5/26/10 at 8:21pm
post #43 of 341

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 

Well, "audiophile" has become more of an insult to me...all those moronic sites like computeraudiophile.com have ruined the term IMO. Let's replace it by "audioholic" if you don't mind, this I am...most definitely!

 

so, let's see:

-all the ppl rolling opamps are on meth, right? the differences are placebo huh?


You're trying to make it sound like insulting people.  I'm not, but I would say a good many instances are indeed placebo.  First roll some opamps, level match them, and then DBT.  I've done DBT on quite a few solid state amps, and as long as they were of the same quality (nothing horrendously wrong or out of the normal) I couldn't tell a difference.

 

This is same with lots of amps.  If solid state amps with entirely different topologies, transistors, layouts can sound the same . . . I fail to see (or hear in this case too) why an opamp should be any different if it's being properly utilized.  If you're using it wrong then there could be issues.  For example, an opamp that doesn't put out enough current needs buffers while another one may not.

 

 

Quote:

-did you compare different cables on headphones? did you recable headphones, ever? did you try say a K701/HD650 w/ different cables? do you honestly believe that all the ppl who hear differences in cables are clueless? or let's say more credule than you?

 

There's no example of a true DBT that shows cables making a difference except on a phono cartridge at extremely long lengths.  I've tried various interconnects myself, but never noticed a difference compared to a set of monoprice RCA cables.  Of course you can just accuse me of being tin eared, but they (cable believers) have yet to prove they're golden eared.

 

Quote:

I'm not saying cables would make a drastic difference on speakers in a non-controlled room w/o room EQ...but on headphones, except if you're deaf you will hear differences(and the SQ improvement doesn't have anything to do w/ the price...I clearly agree that the markups are unjustified in the cable world).

 

As I expected, you've jumped to slander my hearing.  Congrats, you've proven my point.

 

No matter what others say you can denounce them based on their hearing - while never actually proving yours.  It's such a disgusting practice.

 

 

Quote:
-so all the ppl hearing differences between S/PDIF interfaces are also prone to placebo? I presume you'd be happy w/ your realtek coax output? it'd be as good as a m2tech hiface, right? all the talk at the end of this white paper about clock accuracy is bs, right?

 

Thanks for putting words in my mouth - again.  I wouldn't classify realtek as a particularly good solution as they're known to have measurement issues.  However, many other consumer grade modern interfaces do relatively well with jitter getting to levels where audibility is heavily debated.

 

Also - everyone IS prone to placebo - even skeptics.

 

I believe clock accuracy is important, the question is to what degree.  Since I don't want to have to worry about it I have a good DAC that handles it well.  Same with Benchmark owners.  Do we necessarily hear the improvement?  Not necessarily - but if you question it you can take the fly out with a sledgehammer anyway.

 

 

Quote:
some soundcards don't output spot-on frequencies, they just don't: http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-are-clocks-generated-in-musiland.html

 

I don't believe I commented on soundcards at all.  Once again, cart before the horse much?  Also, you're link references sampling rate issues caused by drivers if I'm reading this right.  What was the point exactly?

 

Quote:
-did you compare Reclock and foobar? on your K601?
 

 

No, but it's already rather pointless.  Even if I did a DBT and it showed a null you could accuse me of tin ears or being deaf again.  It's up to the believers to provide evidence, not the other way around.

 

Quote:
-did you actually compare opamps? are all those "facts" of yours based on real world field experience? or are you just full of certitudes based on what you read on the web?

 

I've used various opamp based amps - once again rolling has rarely made a difference beyond loudness or whether something did or didn't clip.

 

 

Quote:
many ppl feel so smart and proud of themselves by "debunking" myths...but my honest advice would be to not fall into excess, doing your homework, and not taking anything for granted...and let us know how it went

 

The problem is you have to take some things at face values or you'll be trapped in redundancy going absolutely no-where.

 

Quote:
I still rest my case that many things in audio cannot be measured...let's say the holy "PRaT", this guy tried to explain why the PRaT sucks on that phone:

 

PRaT at its core (if it weren't an made-up audiophile term) would be based on transients.  Of course we can measure this, but heaven forbid the believers trust the results.

post #44 of 341

so majkel is out of his mind, innit? http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2

 

I believe clock accuracy is important, the question is to what degree.  Since I don't want to have to worry about it I have a good DAC that handles it well. 

 

garbage in, garbage out....you can reclock it as much as you like.

 

you're link references sampling rate issues caused by drivers if I'm reading this right.  What was the point exactly?

 

that Musiland cared enough to release firmware and drivers updates to fix their sloppy clock synthesis....but you can rest assured that most cheapo interfaces don't output 44100.000000 and 48000.000000 kHz

 

No, but it's already rather pointless.  Even if I did a DBT and it showed a null you could accuse me of tin ears

 

so you're in a thread that says that a minimalist audio player sounds better than foobar, you're saying that they all sound the same...yet, you didn't try it because you're convinced that they'd all sound the same anyway? did I get this right?

 

PRaT at its core (if it weren't an made-up audiophile term) would be based on transients.  Of course we can measure this

 

great news! I think the guy who makes the measurements for headroom is on this forum and is currently building a new lab, maybe you could hint him on a procedure to measure PRaT?

 

  Of course you can just accuse me of being tin eared

 

well, I disagree w/ each and every of your beliefs...and I've proved each of them wrong IRL. All the toslink interfaces I tried sounded different, all the opamps sound drastically different(like majkel and Andrea tried to explain), headphones recabling is a luck of the draw...something worse, sometimes better, and all the media players sound different to my ears...in "bit-perfect" KS/ASIO on XP SP3:

-foobar sounds blurry and mushy

-Reclock sounds very "in your face" and the sound is much clearer...I'll DBT them anytime you like. It's great for movies dialogs clarity, that's for sure!

-uLilith is more laid back, the most "analog" sounding player to my ears...it just sounds awfully good.


Edited by leeperry - 5/26/10 at 9:05pm
post #45 of 341

I still think your Foobar is somehow setup wrong, Leeperry.  I still suggest that you get your hands on an RC copy of Win7, find a way around the date issue, and install it on a different HDD.  Even just to experiment with the sound.

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