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sub bass vs mid bass - Page 2

post #16 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyxix View Post



 

 

Wait what?

 

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=283&graphID[]=183
 

 

Can't talk about the quality but quantity wise the M50 have much more of a bass emphasis compared to the rest of the frequencies especially the midbass. I guess it might be true with the D5000 but even so the M50 have more of a midbass hump in comparsion to the rest of the frequencies.

 

Now to OP

 

You can hear the sub-bass quite easily. Just not in today's synthetic music where the midbass dominates so even if there is sub bass it is completely covered. Get a pair of D7000 and if you can hear a distant rumble then you are hitting the sub-bass. The thumps are all mid-bass.



I WAS reffering to the D5000... should have mentioned that 

post #17 of 62

I can hear the difference between sub bass and mid bass with pipe organ music.  But it requires an organ with a true 32 foot pipe (no fake 32 foot wannabe pipe effects).  Little 16 foot pipes don't go that low.

 

My Denon D2000 will let me know when an organ is playing a 32 foot note.  My poor HD600 doesn't even know those pedal notes exist.  I love my D2000 with pipe organ.

 

There really isn't a lot of music that goes down that low and is recorded that low without being filtered out.  There's some hip-hop and electronic music that has sub bass.  I think Bela Fleck's "Flight Of The Cosmic Hippo" goes down to the sub bass but I'm not sure how low, most of it would be mid bass. 

 

If I was a true bass head I'd have already measured all of my music and cataloged it all by Hz

1, 2, To the bass

post #18 of 62

Honestly I don't think FR graphs have anything to do with the depth of bass. Taking the XB700s 3Hz for instance doesn't sound as deep as the Ultrasone HFI-780 which is only rated down to 10Hz.

post #19 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham Sandwich View Post

I can hear the difference between sub bass and mid bass with pipe organ music.  But it requires an organ with a true 32 foot pipe (no fake 32 foot wannabe pipe effects).  Little 16 foot pipes don't go that low.

 

My Denon D2000 will let me know when an organ is playing a 32 foot note.  My poor HD600 doesn't even know those pedal notes exist.  I love my D2000 with pipe organ.

 

There really isn't a lot of music that goes down that low and is recorded that low without being filtered out.  There's some hip-hop and electronic music that has sub bass.  I think Bela Fleck's "Flight Of The Cosmic Hippo" goes down to the sub bass but I'm not sure how low, most of it would be mid bass. 

 

If I was a true bass head I'd have already measured all of my music and cataloged it all by Hz

1, 2, To the bass



Were  you serious about the HD600 can't tell some low bass notes? or was it just an exaggeration?      if they can't play some deep notes in the music than it is some serious flaw for a headphone that consider itself as a reference headphone...don't you think?

i can definitely say that the grados (except for the gs,ps series...don't know about them) can't even play bass that is not so deep sucessfully,   but as they are not reference headphone it ok.

 

Its good to hear that the denons perform superbly in the deep bass area,i wonder how low the M50 can go.   electronic music of many kinds also contain very deep notes,and the M50 perform very well so far.   but i would like to try REALLY low (20-30 hrz) notes just to test them out.


Edited by plonter - 5/21/10 at 3:32pm
post #20 of 62
Ham Sandwich, is it ok if you can send us the pipe organ recording you are talking about?

I know Denon is good at bass but I firmly believe my Stax is at least on par with Denon as far as sub bass goes.
post #21 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by plonter View Post

Were  you serious about the HD600 can't tell some low bass notes? or was it just an exaggeration?      if they can't play some deep notes in the music than it is some serious flaw for a headphone that consider itself as a reference headphone...don't you think?


If you listen to Denons for long enough you can't hear very much of anything anymore!  The Denons have a really fat bottom, anything in comparison once adjusted will seem flawed or seriously lacking in comparison. I say once adjusted because if you listen to any one headphone for long enough you will adjust to even the the most bass heavy sound, this then becomes your norm, or your neutral if you like.

post #22 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post


If you listen to Denons for long enough you can't hear very much of anything anymore!  The Denons have a really fat bottom, anything in comparison once adjusted will seem flawed or seriously lacking in comparison. I say once adjusted because if you listen to any one headphone for long enough you will adjust to even the the most bass heavy sound, this then becomes your norm, or your neutral if you like.



agree.  the denons get you out of proportion

post #23 of 62

Good point made :)

post #24 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyHoney View Post

Ham Sandwich, is it ok if you can send us the pipe organ recording you are talking about?

I know Denon is good at bass but I firmly believe my Stax is at least on par with Denon as far as sub bass goes.


The Telarc pipe organ recordings with Michael Murray do big pipes.  Telarc records their pipe organ recordings to impress, stuff to make subwoofers useful.  They record big organs with 32 foot pipes and they make sure those big pipes get used.

 

The Toccata and Fugue in D minor (BWV 565) is a good example.  Big sound and they throw in the 32 foot pedals.

 

The Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor (BWV 582) is a better example.  Not as bombastic all over so you can hear some more subtleties in the pedal notes, especially at the beginning when the pedals get a nice solo.  The beginning (first minute or so) has the pedals doing a solo and there's a 32 foot pedal in there.  It's very soft but lets you hear what a 32 foot pedal does.  The fundamental for a 32 foot pipe is 16 Hz.  You don't hear it so much as hear its affect.  It creates a worble or a beat tone that you can hear affecting the other pedal notes.  That's sub bass.  If you can hear that worble or beat tone you're hearing the sub bass.  With most headphones you're not going to hear it.  I don't hear that worble with my HD600, but I do clearly on the Denon D2000.

 

Telarc does some funny business with the hall reverb in many of their organ recordings.  It's like they have an additional mic out in the hall just for the reverb and they mix it in.  It can almost sound artificial and fake when done that way.  In the Toccata and Fugue, but moreso in the Passacaglia and Fugue you can hear the reverb and hall ambiance get a mono sound that seems artificial.  The effect is noticeable on full range speakers (real full range speakers that do an honest 20 Hz) or with a setup that includes a very good sub.  If the headphones give that same affect you're doing very good (the Denon D2000 does, the HD600 doesn't).

post #25 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by plonter View Post

Were  you serious about the HD600 can't tell some low bass notes? or was it just an exaggeration?      if they can't play some deep notes in the music than it is some serious flaw for a headphone that consider itself as a reference headphone...don't you think?


Not too much of an exaggeration.  See my reply to SillyHoney.  A 32 foot pipe creates a worble or beat tone in the other pedal notes.  I don't hear that with the HD600 but I do with the D2000.  Someone with better hearing than me might be able to strain and hear the worble with the HD600, but it's not going to be as clear and obvious as it is on the D2000.  Not even close.

 

I used the HD600 as my primary headphone for over a decade.  Listened to a lot of pipe organ music during that time.  I was always hunting around for where the 32 foot pipe was hiding in the recording.  I knew it was supposed to be there but it just wasn't making itself known.  Then I got the D2000 and the 32 foot pipe was suddenly obvious.  Pipe organ on headphones became a new experience.

 

It's no shame or flaw that the HD600 doesn't do that.  Bass like that is just not common in headphones.  The HD600 excels in other areas and doesn't need to be EQed like my Denon.  So the HD600 gets its revenge and is the superior headphone overall.

 

I'd like to get a chance to try the HD800 with the Passacaglia and Fugue and the 32 foot pipes to see how it does.

post #26 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by plonter View Post

agree.  the denons get you out of proportion


That's only cause you have the D5000 instead of the D2000 or D7000.  ::just_kidding_smile:: 

post #27 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham Sandwich View Post




That's only cause you have the D5000 instead of the D2000 or D7000.  ::just_kidding_smile:: 



but its true.  I didn't hear the D7000 or the D2000 but just from reading reviews and looking at the headroom graphs i can tell that the D5000 is the least balanced headphone from the AHD series. 

post #28 of 62

Midbass is roughly between 100-400hz and Deepbass is 20-100hz. Mid bass is more punchy, simply because most headphones produce midbass with greater ease than deepbass. If you want the absolute best headphone for producing beautiful Deep AND Mid bass you can't walk past the Beyerdynamic DT990, I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. I has SLIGHTLY less punch in Midbass than some competitors (but still plenty) but completely blows away every headphone up to twice its own price in the production of deep bass in power, definition and quality and the pure texture of all mid and deep bass is phenomenal. The 600ohm version of the DT990 also has balanced treble and midrange.

post #29 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.R.A.N.C.E. View Post

Midbass is roughly between 100-400hz and Deepbass is 20-100hz. Mid bass is more punchy, simply because most headphones produce midbass with greater ease than deepbass. If you want the absolute best headphone for producing beautiful Deep AND Mid bass you can't walk past the Beyerdynamic DT990, I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. I has SLIGHTLY less punch in Midbass than some competitors (but still plenty) but completely blows away every headphone up to twice its own price in the production of deep bass in power, definition and quality and the pure texture of all mid and deep bass is phenomenal. The 600ohm version of the DT990 also has balanced treble and midrange.


I'm pretty sure the JH16 Pro is better for pure sub-bass performance.

post #30 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham Sandwich View Post

 

I'd like to get a chance to try the HD800 with the Passacaglia and Fugue and the 32 foot pipes to see how it does.


I just found the cd (a friend has it), I will hear it sometime in the weekend and post my impressions with the HD800 (and also the HD650, but the 650 pales in comparison to the 800 in the sub bass area).

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