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HifiMAN HE-6 Planar Magnetic Headphone - Page 456

post #6826 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwappo99 View Post

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few points to go over here: 

 

1. Being blatantly rude isn't helping anyone. 

 

2. You obviously haven't been keeping up on this thread since the beginning. There are tons of pairings of monoblocks and speaker amps with these headphones. Only in the last months are the emotiva amplifiers discussed. 

 

3. Go back from page one and start reading. Find the first person to hook up an emotiva. It was me somewhere in mid-July. At that point the HE-6 were well over 2 years old. There's 2  years of comments that came before an impression with an emotiva, which cover a ton of various amplifiers and monoblocks. If you're interested in purely amplification, I'd suggest you also read up on the HE-6 amplification thread. 

 

4. The reason emotivas are discussed a lot is that they provide an excellent price/performance ratio. a $200 emotiva unit (imo) drives the HE-6 better than a $750 Mjolnir. Earlier in the thread (maybe 1.5 years ago) virtue audio amplifiers were discussed more heavily than emotivas are now. They, similarly, provided an excellent price/performance ratio. 

 

5. Have you heard the HE-6 with an Emotiva or a Rotel, and then compared them with a 'high end' monoblock? If not, how can you tell they aren't impressive. There's only a handful of people that currently own HE-6 and emotivas. Did you purchase a unit?

 

I feel it slightly humorous that you complain about 'hype' but your audio equipment exists purely of Schiit Audio coming out of an Apple Macbook. That hype stuff will get ya' 

1.If that came across rude, apologies. Just stating he hadn't kept up to date. And sorry, Mike. HC and I posted minutes apart,

and you didn't use the quote function. Plus, it's been known he owns a Rotel monoblock.

 

2.I understand, there are impressions that are over 2 years old. But things do change. And yes, I'm referring to the recent explosion of mono love.

It's overtaking discussions. Again not a crusade against monos by any means. A little variety never hurt. 

 

3. As clearly stated the Emo's were focus points of the recent monoblock love, but I also said less mono's in general.

 

4. Yes, Emo's offer good price/performance: ad nauseam. You obviously aren't reading my posts fully or clearly.

 

5.I've compared mono's to mono's, not DBL, however this isn't SS. So obviously,

I'm just expressing my opinion. And no, I obviously don't own the Emotivas. As stated I've tried them out.

 

It's my opinion that it is hyped. There's a power requirement debacle as has been discussed to great lengths in this thread and in PM's.  you can disagree. And now it just sounds like you have an ax to grind. That's cool.

 

 

 


Edited by paradoxper - 10/11/12 at 1:08am
post #6827 of 14789
Quote:

Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

Big power supplies with appropriate capacitance for the required load are much more common in speaker amps than headphone amps, the ability to operate driving a sustained high current draw while still having sufficient reserves for peak swings is also much more common in speaker amps than headphone amps.

 

Or to put it even more simply, even when listening to smooth jazz with the HE6, there's no substitute for heavy metal tongue.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

I've heard the HE6 off only one speaker amp at a mini meet but from all reports that speaker amp was pretty good. I definitely won't be getting a speaker amp unless it somehow looks like a headphone amp in size. That's the biggest thing with me getting a speaker amp. They are almost never small and that speaker amp I tried was definitely not small. If I already had a speaker amp lying around then it would be different but unfortunately I don't.

 

Someone needs to give this little guy a try, 45 wpc into 8 ohms, on sale for $299:

 

 

The HE6 could be driven from the taps on the back, and more efficient headphones from the front jack.

post #6828 of 14789
Quote:

Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

Big power supplies with appropriate capacitance for the required load are much more common in speaker amps than headphone amps, the ability to operate driving a sustained high current draw while still having sufficient reserves for peak swings is also much more common in speaker amps than headphone amps.

 

Or to put it even more simply, even when listening to smooth jazz with the HE6, there's no substitute for heavy metal tongue.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

I've heard the HE6 off only one speaker amp at a mini meet but from all reports that speaker amp was pretty good. I definitely won't be getting a speaker amp unless it somehow looks like a headphone amp in size. That's the biggest thing with me getting a speaker amp. They are almost never small and that speaker amp I tried was definitely not small. If I already had a speaker amp lying around then it would be different but unfortunately I don't.

 

Someone needs to give this little guy a try, 45 wpc into 8 ohms, on sale for $299:

 

 

The HE6 could be driven from the taps on the back, and more efficient headphones from the front jack.

post #6829 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

Well, that's your opinion. I don't think the mono's I heard were even 10% better. And I'm not talking about anything else outside of SQ,

customer service, build quality, etc. It's clear you haven't been keeping up on this thread.

 

Anyways, I can understand space constraints, but in that case go a different route. It's known that mono's give the power for dirt cheap,

this has been discussed ad nauseam. However It'd be nice to hear more options discussed, "higher-end" options.

It seems the Emotiva's are getting much exposure, but I feel there's a lot of hype, comparatively to other gear.

 

I've also heard the Emotiva UPA, so you may want to redact your statement. And to clarify, since there are such assumptions,

the Emotiva's are ok, I'm not saying they are bad. I take the perspective of even the modest of amps that can drive the HE-6 is ok.

It's really about enjoying the music not the gear. However there are more options out there and I'd like to hear impressions.

Perhaps specifically focused on pure Class A.

 

Very few of us will get to own multitudes of any gear mentioned, so I'd just like to put in a request for less Emo monos or 

mono's in general and expand on the almost endless others.

 

 

 

Sorry paradoxper but,
 
Why all this hype / hyperbole talk? When is it "NOT" hype / hyperbole anymore?
 
Lets do this:
 
Define hype / hyperbole:
 
Define consensus:
 
 
This thread is now over 455 pages long and from the start it's been said vintage amps, vintage receivers and speaker amps are preferred SQ wise over any headphone amp to drive the HE-6s - this is including the Dark Star and EF-6. I'm not saying that their not some that prefer the Dark Star or the EF-6 - I'm saying it's more that prefer speaker amps over other headphone amps SQ wise.
 
MikeK200 and has lived with the MJ and a cheap (in cost) $200 speaker amp for a few months now. By this time the wow factor, new toy factor and what ever else you'll like to call it should be gone by now. He has said he gets at least a 25% increase in SQ over the MJ with the HE-6s.
 
Now Mikes and elwappo99 amp is Emotivas cheapest amp. So this companies statement amp (XPA-1) is said to be only a 10% increase in SQ over the MJ when this amp has won multiple awards and rave reviews for it's sound quality and is said to best other amps 2Xs it's price in SQ.  This to me unbelievable. But these are all subjective opinions.
 
WOW - you put your HE-6s on a pair of 500 watt mono blocks?  I thought what I have is Overkill..  
 
Now what's hype or hyperbole is that now all of a sudden the MJ is the headphone amp that can drive the HE-6 within 10% SQ wise of what a speaker amp can?  When other well know headphone amps can not - when compared to speaker amps. Really? Now that's "HYPE".  I can't wait for their Statement amp.
 
Although it was a pure accident how I ended up using my Emotiva amps (UPA-1s) to drive the HE-6s - their was a full consensus among both seasoned head fi'ers that both sets of mono blocks (Rotels and UPA-1s) were more than a 10% sound quality increase over any headphone amp I had and we heard at the time.  
 
Hell it was said by the Head Fi'er that brought over the B24 that the B24 CRUSHED the Dark Star in SQ in a head to head session. This head fi'er also agreed that the Emotiva monos and the Rotel monos bettered the B24 in SQ - Go figure. No hype just reality.
 
Just to be clear - I'm not advertising Emotiva - but for the price (less than the MJ) and the size (form factor) this amp (Mini-X a-100) is a no miss for the HE-6 (for some).  
 
I'm now on the hunt for a pure class A amp (First Watt, Audio-gd Master 3) to replace my UPA-1s.
post #6830 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

I don't know if the Mjolnir brings the HE6 to it's maximum potential but I don't really care. It sounds really good and that's next to my HD800 which is great. So far it is really smooth especially on top. I could really see me owning this and the HD800 together.

 

The first thing is that the weight distribution is so much better than the HE500. I don't know how thats possible but my neck was getting sore after an hour or so with the HE500 but the HE6 is just fine.

 

I don't see how the Mjolnir could be under-powering it with the amount of current it puts out.  At the point you're at, it's likely just about the presentation of different amps.

 

So the easiest way for me to tell whether the HE-6 was poorly driven or properly driven was to focus on the low end.  

 

If it's velvety, warm, with a nice amount of impact, then all's well.  Top end should still be as you describe.

 

I'm not sure if you're into metal, but do yourself a favor and spin some, if it was anything that separated those two phones, it was that genre.

post #6831 of 14789

What confuses me is that the Mjolnir sounds good with the HD-800 yet I found it bright with the HE-6, even though the bass was strong.  Pretty confusing, maybe for the HD800 the amp is still operating in class-A or something?  I don't know.  Could be synergy?

post #6832 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post


Some of us silverbacks have gathered some gear and can experiment.

 

I do wish my parents were into speaker audio when I was growing up so I could use a speaker amp on these :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikek200 View Post

The Emotiva I have is small & inexpensive.
I chose that amp due to few recommendations from guys who own it,and it is the only speaker amp that fits on my desktop setup
IMHO,,it gives me about 25% increase in SQ.,for the he-6, OVER ,the MJ.
Emotiva makes good products,& their tech support is highly regarded
Not ,sure why somebody would comment on a amp ,they have never tried or owned

 

Fair enough. There are some that aren't too large but I'm going to have to give it some time since I got the HE6 on impulse as well as the Mjolnir amp. I would need an amp that works on both the HD800 and HE6 and would prefer not to deal with speaker taps and such if possible but will see in the next few months.

post #6833 of 14789
I am not arrogant or stupid enough to say my little RMB-100s are the best thing to drive these headphones. They were the best I'd heard with my limited availability at the time. All the intent was to say there are options owners may have already in their home besides dropping good money on a headphone amp than may or may not drive them satisfactorily.

The new FOTM vendors being pumped aren't the greatest either. Sorry if it hurts your feelings that exquisite superlatives aren't gushed on your choices. I found at my A/V store that my gear isn't the last word for these wonderful headphones. Such is the hobby. There's always something to prove us wrong once we've gotten comfortable with our choices. At a point, we have to choose something to listen with. But there are some highly respected members on here making judgments on these headphones using FOTM gear (Lyr). This place is a marketing site for vendors first and foremost. The hobbyist of us are intrepid souls and will experiment with other options. For what it's worth, I did listen to my outside speaker amp (Rotel RB-1050) and it didn't cut the mustard. The imaging was too flat.

Schiit is building a Statement amp. What reason would there be to make such a piece if they already had the pinnacle piece for these headphones? We are all curious to hear what they have to offer as they certainly are quality and worth consideration. I'm also anxious to find out what that BAT 55SE sounds like from the good DR. As has been mentioned, none of us have the resources or availability to hear all of the finer gear out there. And as long as speaker amps have been made, there are more options available than all the headphone amps in existence. Since these headphones can use a speaker amp, it opens a massive option. That cuts against the purpose of this site, Selling gear.

PS- Our next visit to Audible Elegance will have Cambridge gear and I hope to be able to try that piece or similar. But it's the MacIntosh and Naim gear I'm most curious about. The Primaluna piece had that wonderful 3-d sound and I think the big Mac will sound awesome (pure speculation).
Edited by Happy Camper - 10/11/12 at 7:02am
post #6834 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

I don't know if the Mjolnir brings the HE6 to it's maximum potential but I don't really care. It sounds really good and that's next to my HD800 which is great. So far it is really smooth especially on top. I could really see me owning this and the HD800 together.

 

The first thing is that the weight distribution is so much better than the HE500. I don't know how thats possible but my neck was getting sore after an hour or so with the HE500 but the HE6 is just fine.

 

Looks like sphinx has passed that curse to both of us wink_face.gif

 

About the latter, I agree about the weight of HE-6, I don't find them as heavy as people complain about with HE-500...no worse than HE-400 to me.  Glad I didn't buy your HE-500 tongue_smile.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

This is why I have such trepidation about speaker taps. I know it gets better, but at the cost of simplicity. And it's pretty damn good already.

 

I don't find speaker amps/taps to be any less simplistic....then again I was into stereo before headphones, so HP stuff feels just a bit dainty to me now.  A big (non-mono) speaker amp is just a really really big headphone amp.  Since audiophiles seem to judge SQ by the weight and size of the amp, it must mean it's a really high-end HP amp rolleyes.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

 

I've heard the HE6 off only one speaker amp at a mini meet but from all reports that speaker amp was pretty good. I definitely won't be getting a speaker amp unless it somehow looks like a headphone amp in size. That's the biggest thing with me getting a speaker amp. They are almost never small and that speaker amp I tried was definitely not small. If I already had a speaker amp lying around then it would be different but unfortunately I don't.

 

I don't know....the only HP amps I have are the Headroom Micro, O2, and Lyr.  They all feel so fragile and dainty sitting on my rack with 50+lbs of Marantz and Denon gear biggrin.gif  Headphiles....always need their teensy little audio systems.   And before you get to it, no, "I need it to fit at my computer" doesn't save you as a valid excuse from huge racks of gear.  My computer sound system consists of a Denon AVR, a 12" Velodyne sub, a Yammy SACD carousel, and a 5.1 JBL Studio L 4-way set including that mega wallmount center channel with the dual woofers.  And on top of the rack sits the little Headroom Micro that served my HD650s for years. My Leaning Tower of Marantz is my "compact" headphone rig, thank you very much! cool.gif

 

I often laugh at the sheer amount of wiring running around my computer for audio (and video...HDMI) bigsmile_face.gif  The computer's build around the sound system rolleyes.gif

 

Seriously, though, I hear you.  I was hesitant to get into HE-6 for the same reasons.  "It's bigger than my Lyr, I need it to be compact!"   Finally I threw caution to the wind....I don't regret it.  The room had to be rearranged to do it, but darn it, the symphony demanded it...what was I to do? beerchug.gif

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by grokit View Post

 

Or to put it even more simply, even when listening to smooth jazz with the HE6, there's no substitute for heavy metal tongue.gif

 

 

 

Someone needs to give this little guy a try, 45 wpc into 8 ohms, on sale for $299:

 

 

The HE6 could be driven from the taps on the back, and more efficient headphones from the front jack.

 

LOL! Punny! normal_smile%20.gif

 

That's a great price for a piece like that....45wpc is surprising from it....it looks 100% like a preamp from the front...surprisingly small for an integrated! Surprisingly cheap at that price too!  Even with the Cambridge tax biggrin.gif

post #6835 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

Seriously, though, I hear you.  I was hesitant to get into HE-6 for the same reasons.  "It's bigger than my Lyr, I need it to be compact!"   Finally I threw caution to the wind....I don't regret it.  The room had to be rearranged to do it, but darn it, the symphony demanded it...what was I to do? beerchug.gif

LOL!

And we are slaves to the symphony (or whatever the genre). biggrin.gif
post #6836 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 


 
This thread is now over 455 pages long and from the start it's been said vintage amps, vintage receivers and speaker amps are preferred SQ wise over any headphone amp to drive the HE-6s - this is including the Dark Star and EF-6. I'm not saying that their not some that prefer the Dark Star or the EF-6 - I'm saying it's more that prefer speaker amps over other headphone amps SQ wise.

Now what's hype or hyperbole is that now all of a sudden the MJ is the headphone amp that can drive the HE-6 within 10% SQ wise of what a speaker amp can?  When other well know headphone amps can not - when compared to speaker amps. Really? Now that's "HYPE".  I can't wait for their Statement amp.

Just to be clear - I'm not advertising Emotiva - but for the price (less than the MJ) and the size (form factor) this amp (Mini-X a-100) is a no miss for the HE-6 (for some).  

 

To play devil's advocate I'd argue that very few people have actually heard a Dark Star with HE-6, and very few people have heard EF-6 at all.  Many people have heard HE-6 with any of a vast number of speaker amps, and most that have heard HE-6 with a Dark Star or EF-6 are also meet/show veterans who also get to hear it on things like a Pass or Threshold.  I'm not sure the existing data on those comparisons is hugely valuable beyond academic discussion. 

 

I don't doubt that MJ is more than adequate.  From Grokit's info it puts out the same amount of power as EF-6 (haven't confirmed that yet.)  Lyr, in terms of raw power is also adequate...it's just not the level of performance most of us are looking for in terms of detail, and I suspect it suffers from the sustained current draw with its smallish transformer, but it's more than listenable without shifting into the bright/thin mode that an underamped HE-6 demonstrates. IMO I think both sides of the equation have it way too hyperbolized.  One one side is the "headphone amps are universally worse than speaker amps" mentality, which I strongly doubt is true...it's just that there's not many headphone amps that have both the power and performance needed, and most of those are more expensive than an equivalent speaker amp.  On the other hand there's the "there's no difference between a headphone amp and the speaker amp" mentality, which for reasons discussed on the previous page is also an understatement.  In reality I think there are headphone amps that surpass many speaker amps, and speaker amps that surpass headphone amps, and some speaker amps that surpass everything....for a price. I really doubt it's as black & white as people have a habit of viewing it, which in turn turns many people away from a truly amazing headphone.  It almost turned me away!  The only catch is the headphone amps that do handle the HE-6 well are built more along the power requirements of a low power integrated speaker amp than a typical headphone amp. And the VFM equation falls away from there more times than not which usually leads back to "speaker amps are cheaper, and there's more variety to choose from, why waste money?"

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

 

I don't see how the Mjolnir could be under-powering it with the amount of current it puts out.  At the point you're at, it's likely just about the presentation of different amps.

 

So the easiest way for me to tell whether the HE-6 was poorly driven or properly driven was to focus on the low end.  

 

+1, bingo!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

 

I do wish my parents were into speaker audio when I was growing up so I could use a speaker amp on these :)

 

 

Fair enough. There are some that aren't too large but I'm going to have to give it some time since I got the HE6 on impulse as well as the Mjolnir amp. I would need an amp that works on both the HD800 and HE6 and would prefer not to deal with speaker taps and such if possible but will see in the next few months.

 

I'm not sure why everyone goes nuts over speaker taps (so long as you're not trying to feed from a way overpowered amp or drive an over-sensitive headphone.)  The HE-6 comes with an XLR-terminated cable.  Get a 2-ft banana (or spade, or bare wire) to female 4-pin XLR cable, and leave it attached to the binding posts permanently, and just leave the female XLR plug sitting next to the amp's faceplate.  You can still plug your cans in and unplug them just like a balanced HP amp like Mjolnir.   If you're getting a way overpowered amp, get the HE-Adapter and just hook it up like a pair of speakers, with speaker wire (or bananas or whatever.)  It's even more elegant looking in the black aluminum box and does the same thing as the banana-to-xlr cable but with some light resistors in the path.


Edited by IEMCrazy - 10/11/12 at 7:47am
post #6837 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

To play devil's advocate I'd argue that very few people have actually heard a Dark Star with HE-6, and very few people have heard EF-6 at all.  Many people have heard HE-6 with any of a vast number of speaker amps, and most that have heard HE-6 with a Dark Star or EF-6 are also meet/show veterans who also get to hear it on things like a Pass or Threshold.  I'm not sure the existing data on those comparisons is hugely valuable beyond academic discussion. 

 

 

 

All data is valuable because it's DATA, furthermore there's "Data" that spans this entire thread before you or I started contributing.  It's up to you if you want to consider it valuable or not.

What you consider not valuable data, I may consider it very valuable data.  The bottom line is it's "data" - Now what you want to do with said data is up to you.

 

Argue?? Well the point wasn't about how many people did anything.  The point was the person who had the B24 did a compression with the Dark Star other have done reviews with the EF-6 so no matter how many people did what - it still was done.  Data was gathered and impressions and opinions was able to be given.

post #6838 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

All data is valuable because it's DATA, furthermore there's "Data" that spans this entire thread before you or I started contributing.  It's up to you if you want to consider it valuable or not.

What you consider not valuable data, I may consider it very valuable data.  The bottom line is it's "data" - Now what you want to do with said data is up to you.

 

Argue?? Well the point wasn't about how many people did anything.  The point was the person who had the B24 did a compression with the Dark Star other have done reviews with the EF-6 so no matter how many people did what - it still was done.  Data was gathered and impressions and opinions was able to be given.

 

Sure, data's useful.  But my point was that comparisons of "Dark Star vs Speaker Amp" is often mentioned about HE-6, and has been for a long time, but we're talking about an extremely limited control group of opinions to go by.  Opening it up to larger sample groups, sans expectation bias of already expecting a speaker amp to beat the Dark Star, may drastically change the results there.

 

I'm not defending Dark Star for HE-6, nor do I think it's a great VRM proposition, or anywhere close.  I certainly wouldn't choose it on VFM alone.  But my point is, a very limited sample group is far from a conclusive consensus.  By the same sized sample groups, putting wood blocks under your cables really does improve the sound of an SS amp rolleyes.gif

 

The point is, unlike a lot of other popular headphones around here that have had large groups of people offer opinions and comparisons on a closely packed group of popular equipment, HE-6 doesn't enjoy that kind of hype, popularity, and FOTM that has the one positive side effect of giving a lot of opinions on particular combinations.  HE-6 is kind of all over the place in this cozy little niche, and it's easy to overstate a small group of comparisons made among a relatively small group of experienced people as being universal common opinion.  I'm not saying the result is untrue, I'm just saying to keep in mind we're talking about a small group of people able to offer opinions, and that opinion could be just as easily swayed by signature preference as actual performance. 

post #6839 of 14789

Some of you guys seem to be chasing either consensus or absolutes.  The only absolute is that there won't be any consensus tongue_smile.gif

 

For myself, I felt the Dark Star and EF-6 both are slightly better with the HE-6 than the speaker amps I've used.  I haven't tried something like a $10K Pass amp, nor will I be.  In the case of the Dark Star, the cost makes considering speaker amps seem pretty prudent.  In the case of the EF-6, it might be tougher to find a speaker amp that would be as good.

 

That said, my vintage Marantz 2285 receiver does nearly as good a job as the EF-6, was much cheaper, drives speakers, has a nice FM tuner and phono stage...etc etc.

post #6840 of 14789
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

Sure, data's useful.  But my point was that comparisons of "Dark Star vs Speaker Amp" is often mentioned about HE-6, and has been for a long time, but we're talking about an extremely limited control group of opinions to go by.  Opening it up to larger sample groups, sans expectation bias of already expecting a speaker amp to beat the Dark Star, may drastically change the results there.

 

I'm not defending Dark Star for HE-6, nor do I think it's a great VRM proposition, or anywhere close.  I certainly wouldn't choose it on VFM alone.  But my point is, a very limited sample group is far from a conclusive consensus.  By the same sized sample groups, putting wood blocks under your cables really does improve the sound of an SS amp rolleyes.gif

 

The point is, unlike a lot of other popular headphones around here that have had large groups of people offer opinions and comparisons on a closely packed group of popular equipment, HE-6 doesn't enjoy that kind of hype, popularity, and FOTM that has the one positive side effect of giving a lot of opinions on particular combinations.  HE-6 is kind of all over the place in this cozy little niche, and it's easy to overstate a small group of comparisons made among a relatively small group of experienced people as being universal common opinion.  I'm not saying the result is untrue, I'm just saying to keep in mind we're talking about a small group of people able to offer opinions, and that opinion could be just as easily swayed by signature preference as actual performance. 

 

 

We have to work with what we have.  It really doesn't matter if said group is small, medium or large a conclusive consensus can be made from any one.  Hell, I can get a conclusive consensus from 3 people.  A consensus for the sake of this discussion simply means the majority.  

 

I think it's a pretty nice size group of people we have here.  It changes from time to time, but there's a good number of people on a few threads that actually contribute or have contributed their findings.   That's why I find it hard to believe how any of this speaker amp talk can be considered HYPE.  We are not the first and we wont be the last to find these things out.

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