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Clip+'s Normal EQ is not flat? - Page 4

post #46 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

@ventilator: It does make sense and is logical. Maybe not intuitive or user-friendly, but logical.

 

normal = flat

 

If you don't believe it please explain why 0 dBFS signals don't clip with the normal setting. 

Btw, I already explained on page 1 that changing any of the EQ sliders will attenuate the signal and why.

 

@JaZZ: I did measurements with Normal and they looked the same.

 

That's because you haven't changed the setting from there, so you're still hearing "Normal" setting. As the OP said:


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sadhanaputra View Post

So anyway. I decided to play with the EQ to find out what it is about the signature that I don't like. So I switched to "Custom" EQ on my Clip+. It didn't do anything at first, until I turned up the treble ONE notch.

Et voilá!

It made all the difference in the world.
The first thing that stroke me was that the volume was lower. And the vocals got more 'normal' and laid back. Just 'colder', somehow, and more flat.

It's not the kind of difference that one notch on the treble would achieve. I tried reducing the treble and making the EQ [seem] flat again, and back came the "Normal" sound signature (warm, flangey, echoey). Turned up the BASS, and the same effect was achieved.

Colder, less echo, less flange, more... flat...
(A little bit less detailed, though, but perhaps it's just because of the mids getting more laid back..)

I searched the web trying to confirm my findings, but all I could found was the issue about the decreasing volume, but no mention about the change in sound sig.

I tested using Hippo Shroom and VB, and got the same result.

After 10 minutes using the "one-notch-short-of-flat-Custom-EQ", switching the EQ back to Normal would make the sound insufferable to me. Too warm!


On the clip at least, can't speak for the Fuze, "Normal" IS NOT ZERO FLAT. Don't know how many times someone has to say it before it sinks in.

 

Just because it doesn't clip doesn't mean it's set at "zero," that's the poorest reasoning I've ever heard. I could set it to +5 and it wouldn't clip, either, or +2, +3, or any minus setting. That doesn't mean those are set at zero just because they don't clip, how ridiculous.

 

I've had enough now, though - just repeating the same thing to people who refuse to even consider what someone else is saying, so that's it for me. Unsubscribed.


Edited by ventilator - 5/25/10 at 8:52am
post #47 of 105

Ok so let me clarify your reasoning in your last few posts.

 

Normal does not equal flat.

Normal = sliders (0)

Therfeore sliders (0) does not equal flat.

 

However, sliders (+1,0,0,0,0) does equal flat with a 1db boost in the low end!

 

Now it makes perfect sense.  Flat does not equal flat unless you have a frequency boosted.  Insert eye roll so hard it broke my neck.


Edited by DKaz - 5/25/10 at 8:59am
post #48 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKaz View Post

Post removed in an attempt to be cordial.


Hehe, all you need is lots and lots of patience.

 


@ventilator: We have hard evidence, measurements etc. You might want to google "dBFS" first, before labeling my reasoning as "poor".

post #49 of 105

 

Originally Posted by ventilator View Post

 

That's because you haven't changed the setting from there, so you're still hearing "Normal" setting. As the OP said:


On the clip at least, can't speak for the Fuze, "Normal" IS NOT ZERO FLAT. Don't know how many times someone has to say it before it sinks in.

 

 

fr.png

 

It would be interesting to know if the Clip(+) measurings were done with «Normal» or «Custom» setting.

 

Originally Posted by xnor View Post

I did measurements with Normal and they looked the same.

 

Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post

 

... I tried the «Custom» equalizer set to flat for the first time and realized that it's as loud as the «Normal» setting – and sounds exactly the same! (This in contrast to 5x +4.)
 



Do you need any more info?
.


Edited by JaZZ - 5/25/10 at 9:10am
post #50 of 105

Jazz, he is saying that when you boost any frequency in the custom EQ that it then becomes flat with just that frequency boosted, and that sliders (0) is still Sansa's "Normal" EQ.  The cut, oops sorry, I meant flat response only happens if you change the EQ.

 

I think he wants to see them with just one frequency boosted so he can see his "flat" line.

 

Obviously the measurements here are wrong if they are showing that the response is flat and at +0 nonetheless in that horrific "Normal" EQ setting.


Edited by DKaz - 5/25/10 at 9:22am
post #51 of 105

The measurements are not wrong. All bars flat and all bars at +4 are indeed the same thing. As soon as you move one bar from the center, the whole spectrum volume is cut. The representation of the bars doesn't change, and that's why there is confusion.

 

To my ears, custom flat, custom +4 and normal are identical.

 

Ideally, when you move one bar up or down, the EQ would only adjust that frequency. The Clip feels the need to pre-cut everything once you make a single adjustment. This makes making minute adjustments cumbersome.

 

It matters little to me because I use everything flat (also rockbox) but it's annoying regardless.


Edited by Punnisher - 5/25/10 at 9:30am
post #52 of 105

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punnisher View Post

The measurements are not wrong. All bars flat and all bars at +4 are indeed the same thing. As soon as you move one bar from the center, the whole spectrum volume is cut. The representation of the bars doesn't change, and that's why there is confusion.


FYI I was being ridiculously sarcastic. I need to get better at that with text.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punnisher View Post

To my ears, custom flat, custom +4 and normal are identical.

 

Ideally, when you move one bar up or down, the EQ would only adjust that frequency. The Clip feels the need to pre-cut everything once you make a single adjustment.


Exactly!
 


Edited by DKaz - 5/25/10 at 9:30am
post #53 of 105

It "makes perfect sense" when you twist, warp and misrepresent what I said. Because unlike what you write, I never said "Normal" = sliders (0), but in fact I have always said that "Normal" does not mean the sliders at zero. What I have always and consistently said is that "Normal" = sliders (+4), which anyone with "normal" hearing can hear is the case.

 

But I can see how this forum is. It is really, really bad when people engage in all this personal attacking and sarcasm. Especially when they are wrong and are all defending some wrong point, and then twisting what you said to the exact opposite to attempt to "prove" some personal attack point.

 

I wanted to reply to correct this blatant misrepresentation of my words, but I really don't want to debate it anymore. These people claim to be so smart, but they apparently can't even understand post after post of someone saying "Normal" = +4 and are so confusional they change that into me saying "Normal" = flat (0), which any idiot can see I never said, but always said something different. So much for the "reasoning" and "critical thinking" skills of these people. They can't even get straight what someone else says.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKaz View Post

Ok so let me clarify your reasoning in your last few posts.

 

Normal does not equal flat.

Normal = sliders (0)

Therfeore sliders (0) does not equal flat.

 

However, sliders (+1,0,0,0,0) does equal flat with a 1db boost in the low end!

 

Now it makes perfect sense.  Flat does not equal flat unless you have a frequency boosted.  Insert eye roll so hard it broke my neck.


 

post #54 of 105

OK, I think its safe to just ignore ventilator now.

 

For those that found this thread in a search:

 

Keep your EQ at Normal for best sound.  It has no digital alteration.  If you must use the EQ (which most agree it is not very good) then you should know that:

 

Normal = EQ off

Custom w/ all setting at zero (i.e., flat) = EQ off

Custom w/ any settings not at zero = overall attenuation of -4 or -5 db.

 

So feel free to boost any setting around those levels to get you volume back to normal levels.  You have plenty of headroom to work with (maybe even up to +8 db) without clipping.

post #55 of 105
Originally Posted by ventilator View Post

What I have always and consistently said is that "Normal" = sliders (+4), which anyone with "normal" hearing can hear is the case.


However, my extraordinary hearing tells me that all sliders to +4 don't sound exactly like «Normal», which is proved to be flat. Whereas «Normal» and «Custom» set to neutral do sound the same to me. So all sliders at +4 won't measure exactly flat.

 

Maybe we will get a measuring curve to prove this (?)...

 

I wonder why you insist in something you have no proof for – just because it looks plausible to you.

.


Edited by JaZZ - 5/25/10 at 10:14am
post #56 of 105

Actually, it's this Max F you shouldn't listen to, because what he says obviously makes no sense. Sansa did not develop their EQ with some sophisticated "cut" mechanism to "give more headroom" or avoid clipping, or all that other nonsense these guys are spouting. That would just be way to much trouble and a very klugy way to think of designing anything. It makes no sense.

 

The very simple fact of the matter is that "Normal" does not equal a flat-at-zero setting, but a boosted setting, in most cases to +4.


When you adjust the "Normal" setting by changing a slider, the EQ is reset to TRUE zero setting, which accounts for the drop in dB. Most people these days like a "sizzly" hot, artificially boosted EQ, and that's what "Normal" does. It boosts from true zero to +4, with an accompanying dB boost.

 

So rest assured: all settings at true zero is a flat setting, while the "Normal" setting is the same as all sliders at +4. If true zero and "Normal" were the same, then obviously if you set everything at actual zero and reduced or bumped up one of the sliders by one, it would sound the same as all the sliders at +4 (Normal) except the one you reduced or boosted. The fact that it doesn't but that it sounds totally different is evidence enough that "Normal" is not the same as a truly flat EQ.

 

There is only one other explanation, which is that it's possible that on later firmwares Sansa made "all the sliders at zero" position sync to the "Normal" setting (which is really all sliders +4). But that would obviously not be true zero either, but just a software trick to make it appear that all the sliders were at 0, when in fact from a sound perspective they were actually synced to a +4 setting (i.e, synced to "Normal"). That would also explain the dB drop out when you moved the slider, because then you would be moving the slider to true zero PLUS OR MINUS that one. But again, that would just mean that what APPEARED to be true zero really wasn't, but was software synced to "Normal" (which is really +4).


Edited by ventilator - 5/25/10 at 10:23am
post #57 of 105

Ventilator...

 

You're apparently a hopeless case. Your posts here come across as hot air to me. – You have no proof for your arguments and not even a reasonable technical background to explain why it's like you see it and not like others see it (and the graphs tell). And you simply ignore the counter arguments.

.


Edited by JaZZ - 5/25/10 at 10:34am
post #58 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by ventilator View Post

When you adjust the "Normal" setting by changing a slider, the EQ is reset to TRUE zero setting, which accounts for the drop in dB. Most people these days like a "sizzly" hot, artificially boosted EQ, and that's what "Normal" does. It boosts from true zero to +4, with an accompanying dB boost.

 

So rest assured: all settings at true zero is a flat setting, while the "Normal" setting is the same as all sliders at +4. If true zero and "Normal" were the same, then obviously if you set everything at actual zero and reduced or bumped up one of the sliders by one, it would sound the same as all the sliders at +4 (Normal) except the one you reduced or boosted. The fact that it doesn't but that it sounds totally different is evidence enough that "Normal" is not the same as a truly flat EQ.

 

There is only one other explanation, which is that it's possible that on later firmwares Sansa made "all the sliders at zero" position sync to the "Normal" setting, which is all sliders +4. But that would not be true zero either, but just a software trick to make it appear that all the sliders were at 0, when in fact from a sound perspective they were actually synced to a +4 setting. That would also explain the dB drop out when you moved the slider, because then you would be moving the slider to true zero PLUS OR MINUS that one. But again, that would just mean that what APPEARED to be true zero really wasn't, but was software synced to "Normal" (which is really +4).


Apparently this is where the confusion is coming from.  On both of the Clips I have owned, there is ABSOLUTELY no change in sound when changing from "Normal" to sliders (0).  It seems you are stating when you change to sliders (0) the cut is automatic.  Ours is not.

 

So when you are stating "Normal", you are referring to sliders (+4) instead fo just stating sliders (+4), and making adjustments from there.  We (including the OP) are making adjustments from sliders (0) which is still "Normal" to us.

 

What you provided however is still not evidence.  You are still assuming that because the sliders are at 0, that this is true flat.  Buy a Sony and don't adjust the sliders and tell me if that is true flat.  If I change the speedometer on your car to have the numbers backwards, would you beleive that the car was slowing down when you hit the accelerator?

 

P.S. I do not think that "Normal" and sliders (4) sound EXACTLY the same.  Get some high quality BAs and listen. 

post #59 of 105

It's pretty obvious to anyone who has ears. "Normal" isn't true-zero flat, the frequencies are all boosted. And if what appears to be "true flat" (all sliders on 0) sounds the same as "Normal," then that isn't true flat, either, but merely a software trick to sync it to the "Normal" setting.

 

That's obvious from when you move the slider up or down from what APPEARS to be true flat and the dB changes so much. It changes FROM artificially boosted +4 TO true flat zero PLUS or MINUS whatever slider you moved. Earlier firmware seems to have left "all sliders at zero" as true flat, while from what all of you are describing, the current firmware has synced the "all 0" setting to "Normal" (which again, is really +4).

post #60 of 105

ventilator,

 

Is it not also possible then that on our firmware "Normal" is not the same as yours?  As I stated before, I do not think that sliders (+4) is EXACTLY the same as "Normal".  Is it almost identical? Yes.  I think that has more to do with the EQ on the Sansa though.  Notice they do not put an actual frequency below the slider.  I would have to imagine it boosts a very big range of frequencies instead of just one.  Thus, if you boost all 5, you are essentially boosting the entire spectrum.

 

Lastly, You still have not provided an evidence that "Normal" is a boost isntead of the EQ using a cut feature.  You are still using the fact that since "Normal" is louder, that it can not be flat. THIS IS NOT EVIDENCE Using that reasoning, I could easily state that you are not getting a flat response unless you are only using one click on the volume.  As soon as you turn it up, you are not listening to a flat response.

 

I do have ears.  I do hear a difference in AMPLITUDE between "Normal" and if I change a slider.  If the line is completely flat from 20Hz  to 20kHz, then it does not matter what the amplitude is, it is still flat.  If some were boosted and others were not, THEN the line would not be flat.

 

The Clip cuts to make room for EQing.  It is as simple as that.  There is no "magic" behind the Normal EQ.  It's not another setting such as "Jazz". It is a simple through put with no coloration from DAC to amp.

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