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Clip+'s Normal EQ is not flat? - Page 3

post #31 of 105


Quote:

Originally Posted by lazybum View Post

MaxF is right

 

Whenever you activate the custom EQ by changing one of the bands from the original position, the player does a precut across all the frequencies. This is to prevent clipping when a band is boosted too high.

 

If all the bands are boosted by a notch and the volume increased by a bit, you'll notice that it'll sound exactly like the "normal" EQ.


Thank you!
 

post #32 of 105
Thread Starter 


Quote:

Originally Posted by ventilator View Post

that's what all EQ does. ;-)
 


 


That's what EQ does, if all bands are modified so that they are on the same level (e.g. +4dB on every band).

 

I guess the only sure way to solve this is to have two Clip+, one set to Normal and one set to Custom with all bands boosted +4dB, and compare their sounds :D

post #33 of 105

Five frequency bands boosted by 4 dB (or so) will not result in the same characteristic as a uniform 4-dB boost. Note that the boosted frequencies represent electrical resonances, so the resulting curve will be at least slightly curved, not linear. I doubt that the «normal» setting works that way. I rather believe in a bit headroom created for the custom equalizer allowing for frequency-band increases without the risk of clipping.

.

post #34 of 105

I love the individuals who join the forum and start spouting off at the mouth without researching and using their critical thinking skills (maybe they have none).  They can take years of research from other members and piss it down the drain with their own comments.

 

Max F and JaZZ have the EQ figured out correctly.  The "Normal" setting is the equivalent of a flat EQ.  Boosting all 5 frequencies should not give you the exact same response because the entire frequency range would not be boosted in linear fashion.  There would indeed be some curve.  I am sure doing a sweep with these settings would reveal it.

 

That being said, I beleive the EQ of the Clip to be sub-par. Depending on how the EQ is implemented, then it is possible that boosting each frequency could still yield a "flat" response.  That is NOT how an EQ should work however, and I do beleive that their is still some curvature to the response curve.


Edited by DKaz - 5/25/10 at 5:43am
post #35 of 105



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ventilator View Post

If it's all boosted to +4, then it's not "flat." Part of what "flat EQ" means is no increased dB boost, and no change in tone, i.e,. neutral. Normal is "flat" only in the same way +12 across the board would be, but it's not a "flat EQ" in the actual meaning of the word, which is no artificially boosted frequencies.

 

Just to clarify a table is only flat if it is on the ground at sea level. Also, music is only flat if it has no amplification at all.



 

post #36 of 105

I have plenty of critical thinking skills, it only seems like they are sorely lacking from some of the members here, who somehow believe that a higher post count means you necessarily have greater critical thinking skills. That in itself shows a severe lack of logical reasoning ability, and should signal to anyone that some of these people don't have the best reasoning skills in the world.
 

Anyone can verify what I've said simply by setting all their sliders to +4 or +5 and noticing that it  now sounds exactly the same as when it is set on "Normal." That's because "Normal" is the same as setting all the sliders to +4 or +5. On some of the firmwares, at least. Maybe these other people have different firmware and they are getting a different effect.

 

If you knew the settings for the other presets, you could just set those yourself manually, too. It's not like there is some kind of "magic" setting that doesn't exist on the sliders that Sansa has made up for the presets.

 

The fact that proves these people like Max F and this DKaz are wrong is that a flat frequency setting means that all the sliders are set to zero. But if you set all the sliders to zero, it doesn't sound the way it does at "Normal." Therefore, "Normal" cannot be true flat. True flat is different from "Normal." That is very simple logic, but it appears these folks are too busy trying to impugn other people's critical thinking skills to have developed any of their own.

 

Setting EQ to true flat is not a CUT in the frequency response. Setting it to "Normal" is a BOOST in the frequency response. It's a boost from true flat. And when it's boosted that way, artificially, by using the "Normal" EQ boost setting, and you adjust one of the sliders, it then automatically RESETS to true flat and you adjust it from there.

 

Yes, you can call that a "cut" if you want, but it's just semantics. If you mean a cut from how it is artificially boosted with the "Normal" setting, then that is one way to say it. Not the most accurate, but obviously going from an artificial +4 boost to zero is a cut. If you mean a cut from true flat, the way these people are using it, then you'd be wrong. Because "Normal" ISN'T true flat. "Normal" is BOOSTED.

 

When people aren't even smart enough to understand that "Normal" is just a word Sansa uses for their preset that boosts all the frequency settings by +4, you have to question what else they aren't smart enough to understand. They seem to be very confused just by a simple word, thinking since it says "Normal," that must mean "flat at zero," when it doesn't mean that at all. It means all frequencies boosted from flat. Sansa could have just called it "Warm," or "Boost," or any other word they wanted to, but they called it "Normal." Sorry, that's not the same as zero. It appears that you need to boost your critical thinking skills to +4.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKaz View Post

I love the individuals who join the forum and start spouting off at the mouth without researching and using their critical thinking skills (maybe they have none).  They can take years of research from other members and piss it down the drain with their own comments.

 

Max F and JaZZ have the EQ figured out correctly.  The "Normal" setting is the equivalent of a flat EQ.  Boosting all 5 frequencies should not give you the exact same response because the entire frequency range would not be boosted in linear fashion.  There would indeed be some curve.  I am sure doing a sweep with these settings would reveal it.

 

That being said, I beleive the EQ of the Clip to be sub-par. Depending on how the EQ is implemented, then it is possible that boosting each frequency could still yield a "flat" response.  That is NOT how an EQ should work however, and I do beleive that their is still some curvature to the response curve.


Edited by ventilator - 5/25/10 at 6:10am
post #37 of 105

No, that's wrong. "Normal" just means all the frequency sliders have been boosted to +4, just like "Jazz" means they are set to (for example) +3 +2 +0 +3 +5, or whatever they actually are set to. There is no "magic" here. Anyone can see for themselves just by setting "Custom" to +4 +4 +4 +4 +4 (some people say +5) and then seeing that it sounds exactly the same as "Normal."
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post

Five frequency bands boosted by 4 dB (or so) will not result in the same characteristic as a uniform 4-dB boost. Note that the boosted frequencies represent electrical resonances, so the resulting curve will be at least slightly curved, not linear. I doubt that the «normal» setting works that way. I rather believe in a bit headroom created for the custom equalizer allowing for frequency-band increases without the risk of clipping.

.

post #38 of 105

I have to go with ventilator on this one. While I do not have a Clip, I own a View and with the firmware I feel most comfortable with battery life wise, 1.01.06, I get the lovely bug of having the EQ reset every time I turn off the View. When I turn it on and listen to a song and then go to the EQ sttings and go to the "normal" setting, the sound is NOT the same as the one when the player starts up. So my conclusion is that the "normal" setting on my Sansa View with the 1.01.06 firmware is not what would be considered a "flat" setting.

 

Like I wrote earlier, I have discovered that the same phenomena is to be found on my Creative Zen Vision M. I discovered that about 2 weeks ago. My Creative Zen Touch ALSO has that "quirk". If I set all custom EQ bands to +4 and then switch to "EQ off", the difference is indistinguishable.

 

I like it how you come here and do not bow to people claiming to be experts, ventilator. I agree with your position and I doubt that any manufacturer of DAP:s really aim for a device that will give a true "flat" response. In the case of the Clip and Fuze, I think it was mainly a freak accident. SanDisk have hardly been the audiophile's choice before and they have just made solid budget DAP:s. After giving up on the View they have basically given up competing against Apple's iPod Nano. So I think that the Clip and Fuze is a case of good DAP:s doing well in tests by audiophiles and then suddenly becoming the audiophile's favorite DAP. I feel there is a great amount of irony here...

post #39 of 105

Normal sounds exactly like flat (all zeros) to me on my Fuze.  When you change one of the sliders the overall gain is dropped approximately 4 db.

 

In digital EQ you CANNOT increase gain without causing clipping in music that is already digitally maxed.  Some EQs just go ahead and allow you to clip all you want.  Apparenlty, Sansa wanted to prevent this - that's why they lowered the overall level once you activate the EQ.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio)

 

"Avoiding clipping

 

As seen on the oscilloscope, the wave resulting from the clipping is not a full sine wave. To avoid this, the overall level of a mix can be lowered, or a limiter can be used to dynamically bring the levels of the loud parts down (for example, bass and snare drums)."

 

Here's a quote from Saratoga who is a developer of Rockbox on the clip and fuze:

 

http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=clipplus&thread.id=4524

 

"For what its worth, and not commenting on how good the EQ itself is, lowering the volume is how a digital EQ is supposed to work.  You do not want to raise it, since hopefully the signal is already at maximum digital volume going into the EQ (using less the maximum would reduce SNR).  So instead to boost one frequency, you lower all the others. 
 
Some EQs will let you boost the volume too, but this often introduces distortion and noise." 
 

Edited by Max F - 5/25/10 at 6:59am
post #40 of 105

If that's the case, then like I said, it's probably different firmware. On the clip, "Normal" is exactly the same as all sliders at +4. People who didn't stop to think it out might have been getting so confused that they changed "Normal" to be all sliders at 0, but that's not the way it is on the clip.

 

Some of you people also keep adding all this irrelevant information, like "in digital EQ you can't increase gain without clipping," blah blah blah.

 

WHO SAID YOU COULD??? That doesn't have anything to do with how Sansa set up their presets, does it? No, it doesn't.

 

In fact, from the way you describe the sound being cut, I have to suspect that when you say that Normal sounds like "flat," you don't really mean that Normal sounds like when the sliders on your fuze are ACTUALLY set at zero, only that it "sounds flat" to you. But it's probably still artificially boosted to the +4, or why would it cut like that? It makes no sense.

 

Because let's say that +4 (Normal) really was "flat." Then how would you get to flat minus one on the right slider? As soon as you adjusted the slider, all the rest of them would drop down to 0 (which from what you are claiming would then actually be all sliders at -4 or -5). Then you would have to go through and set all them back to +4 again, just to get back to what you are calling "flat," and then set the right slider down one notch. All just to be at what you are claiming is true zero, minus that one notch on the right slider.

 

Having to do all that makes absolutely no sense, and it also violates the logical principle of parsimony, which states that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And the simplest explanation is that "Normal" is merely the word they used for their preset that boosts all sliders by +4.

 

Notice how going to default "custom" (i.e., all zeros) is a "cut" from the other presets, too. That's because default "custom" is TRUE flat, and the presets represent deviations from true flat, whether boosted or cut. And "Normal" is a +4 boost across the board from true flat. That's the simplest, most logical, most workable, and most obvious answer.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max F View Post

Normal sounds exactly like flat (all zeros) to me on my Fuze.  When you change one of the sliders the overall gain is dropped approximately 4 db.

 

In digital EQ you CANNOT increase gain without causing clipping in music that is already digitally maxed.  Some EQs just go ahead and allow you to clip all you want.  Apparenlty, Sansa wanted to prevent this - that's why they lowered the overall level once you activate the EQ.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio)

 

"Avoiding clipping

 

As seen on the oscilloscope, the wave resulting from the clipping is not a full sine wave. To avoid this, the overall level of a mix can be lowered, or a limiter can be used to dynamically bring the levels of the loud parts down (for example, bass and snare drums)."

 

Here's a quote from Saratoga who is a developer of Rockbox on the clip and fuze:

 

http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=clipplus&thread.id=4524

 

"For what its worth, and not commenting on how good the EQ itself is, lowering the volume is how a digital EQ is supposed to work.  You do not want to raise it, since hopefully the signal is already at maximum digital volume going into the EQ (using less the maximum would reduce SNR).  So instead to boost one frequency, you lower all the others. 
 
Some EQs will let you boost the volume too, but this often introduces distortion and noise." 
 

Edited by ventilator - 5/25/10 at 7:28am
post #41 of 105

To be honest i do not have much technical knowledge but @ventilator

 

Going by your argument, it is entirely possible that "normal" is the true flat.

Your argument below:

Quote:
The fact that proves these people like Max F and this DKaz are wrong is that a flat frequency setting means that all the sliders are set to zero. But if you set all the sliders to zero, it doesn't sound the way it does at "Normal." Therefore, "Normal" cannot be true flat. True flat is different from "Normal." That is very simple logic, but it appears these folks are too busy trying to impugn other people's critical thinking skills to have developed any of their own.

in no way refutes the possibility that everytime you use the custom eq, the system does a precut across all bands (which is what the others have been trying to say)

 

Yes, setting the EQ to +4 for all bands give you a frequency response that sounds exactly like "normal", but that can also mean that the activation of the custom EQ does a precut across all the bands of 4db.

 

In fact, the latter is a lot more likely as clipping will not be likely to occur when "boosting" the frequencies. Which why i believe the developers introduce a precut whenever the custom eq is activated since most ppl up the notches of the bands when eqing instead of lowering them.

 

EDIT: looks like my post was a bit slow. Regarding the second post, ventilator i think you do not see the reason behind precuts. Equalizers work best when they the frequencies are cut instead of boosted as this will not cause unnecessary distortion. Which is the reason why sandisk is likely to have introduced the precut when the EQ is used.


Edited by lazybum - 5/25/10 at 7:50am
post #42 of 105

As I hear it, «Normal» sounds very similar to «Custom» with 5x +4, but not exactly the same. So I think that «Normal» is indeed flat, whereas «Custom» with all bands set to +4 is not entirely flat.

 

But who cares! If you want flat, you can use «Normal» without hesitation, as it sounds flat – and I think it is. Or you can use «Custom» with the same response, just added headroom for enhancements, thus lower level.

 

 

Originally Posted by Danneq View Post

...I doubt that any manufacturer of DAP:s really aim for a device that will give a true "flat" response.


How about that? ...
 

fr.png

 

It would be interesting to know if the Clip(+) measurings were done with «Normal» or «Custom» setting.

.


Edited by JaZZ - 5/25/10 at 8:13am
post #43 of 105

@ventilator: It does make sense and is logical. Maybe not intuitive or user-friendly, but logical.

 

normal = flat

 

If you don't believe it please explain why 0 dBFS signals don't clip with the normal setting. 

Btw, I already explained on page 1 that changing any of the EQ sliders will attenuate the signal and why.

 

@JaZZ: I did measurements with Normal and they looked the same.


Edited by xnor - 5/25/10 at 8:29am
post #44 of 105
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

@JaZZ: I did measurements with Normal and they looked the same.


Thanks! I halfways expected that.

 

BTW, I tried the «Custom» equalizer set to flat for the first time and realized that it's as loud as the «Normal» setting – and sounds exactly the same! (This in contrast to 5x +4.)
.

post #45 of 105



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ventilator View Post

Anyone can verify what I've said simply by setting all their sliders to +4 or +5 and noticing that it  now sounds exactly the same as when it is set on "Normal."  

 

The fact that proves these people like Max F and this DKaz are wrong is that a flat frequency setting means that all the sliders are set to zero. But if you set all the sliders to zero, it doesn't sound the way it does at "Normal." Therefore, "Normal" cannot be true flat.

 

Dear ventilator,

 

I have listened to them both at "Normal" and at +4 across the entire spectrum.  Are the ridiculously similar? Yes, as they should be if you are changing all of the frequencies by the same amount.  If a table is 100% level and I put a perfect 2" block under every single leg, would the table not still be level? The answer is yes.

 

Now let's imagine this adjustable table is in a room with a very low ceiling (ex 6 ft) and the table manufacturer wanted to give the user the ability to go up or down approximately 3 ft.  Would the manufacturer make the table 5 ft tall? No.  Then the user would only be able to raise it 1 ft and lower it 3 ft (total height of 2 ft).  They would make the table 3 ft tall so that the user could go from 0 ft to 6ft.

 

Using your own argument, if "Normal" = flat and "Normal" = sliders + 4, sliders 0 != flat.  Please explain how in FACT that you know that sliders set to 0 is THE flat.  You can not.  You are ASSUMING that this is how it is implemented on the Clip.

 

Unfortunately I am not sure why I even took the time to explain this since it seems that you do not read anyone else's posts in an effort to have a discussion.  You are simply following your belief and bashing all others without even marinating on their points.

 

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