Testing audiophile claims and myths
May 27, 2015 at 6:20 PM Post #6,391 of 17,336
   
I'm referring to shellac 78s, not vinyl LPs by the way. Each steel needle is good for one record side (4 minutes). After you use it you throw it away. I buy needles in batches of 300 at a time. There are three kinds of needles which each produce a different volume level... soft tone, medium tone and loud tone. Acoustic phonographs don't have volume controls. The dynamics are a straight line from record to the horn. The natural volume level that they heard when it was being recorded.
 
The acoustic recording chain is the same on both ends, just inverted. The singer sings into a horn > vibrates a diaphragm > cuts grooves in beeswax > record is played > vibrates a diaphragm > sound comes out a horn. In essence you are hearing 100 year old vibrations.
 
Nice video limpid! I have that record. It's a good one. That is an Orthophonic Credenza in that video, the top of the Victor line. Saturday, I am getting the main competition for the Credenza, a Brunswick Cortez. The cabinet looks about the same, but the Credenza has a re-entrant folded horn and the Cortez has a huge straight horn made of carefully molded spruce. The Credenza has a little bit more bass, but the sound is a little bit muffled. The Cortez isn't quite as full but the overall sound present and very clear. Cortez's are very rare, because not many of them were made. I'll post a video when I get it.

Phonographs seem a very fun way to spend time.
 
Though I think that buying so many needles might be too expensive in the end. 
 
May 27, 2015 at 6:21 PM Post #6,392 of 17,336
a little more than a penny apiece
 
May 27, 2015 at 8:59 PM Post #6,395 of 17,336
bandwidth and amplitude limiting are required in the analog domain for any ADC
 
and most flagship audio multibit delta sigma ADC today naturally oversample in the front end by as high factors as DSD - and capture 5-7 bits at each time DSD just decides one bit
 
 
of course if you could in fact prove your claim in listening tests then you can buy successive approximation "full bit depth" 400 ks/s 18 bit ADC or  up to 4 Ms/s 16 bit ADC chips developed for medical imaging - ADC SOTA is a bit beyond any "audio" design for a while now
 
May 27, 2015 at 9:05 PM Post #6,396 of 17,336
  bandwidth and amplitude limiting are required in the analog domain for any ADC
 
and most flagship audio multibit delta sigma today naturally oversample in the front end by as high factors as DSD - and capture 5-7 bits at each time DSD just decides one bit
 
 
of course if you could in fact prove your cliam in listening tests then you can buy successive approximation "full bit depth" 400 ks/s 18 ADC or  up to 4 Ms/s 16 bit ADC chips developed for medical imaging - ADC SOTA is a bit beyond any "audio" design for a while now

Now you're going to get the ultrasonic types all worked up.
 
May 27, 2015 at 11:24 PM Post #6,397 of 17,336
  I think that it would be so much fun owning a phonograph. I have no ideea how one sounds though. I guess that it is a nice experience hearing one.

 
I've found that because of remastering errors, it's usually better to play early recordings on the type of machine they were designed for. It depends on the era though. Acoustic sounds MUCH better on acoustic. Early electrical sounds better on modern turntables, because they didn't have the bugs worked out yet. mid 40s stuff sounds really good on a contemporary jukebox. 50s LPs can often sound better on a good 50s hifi system. 60s and 70s, it's hit or miss whether it sounds better on LP or CD. By the time it gets to the late 70s, just about everything is better on CD than LP because of the oil crisis and vinyl recycling.
 
May 28, 2015 at 1:10 AM Post #6,398 of 17,336
  The bandwidth from great analog gear makes even TOTL present digital look like a kindergarten level.  Even if it is a product of the imperfections of tracking the groove - extending well into the MHz range. These frequencies make digital go berserk most of the time.

 
And this... ladies and gentlemen... is why no-one takes AS seriously in this forum.
 
May 28, 2015 at 1:15 AM Post #6,399 of 17,336
I've got to disagree. I'm right there with surviver. Dynamic range is better on a CD but real world dynamics in terms of how the ear seems to hear things is more alive and not by a small degree. This is beyond debate for anyone whose spent time enjoying vinyl on a decent setup, and it doesn't have to be over $1000. I don't know the science behind it and it does seem counter to the facts, but it is what it is. People who don't take this seriously are shooting themselves in the foot in terms of music enjoyment. The level of joy I get from vinyl is night and day over digital music. It might just be a personal thing and some people value different aspects of sound. In fact I do firmly believe this is what is at the bottom of the debate. But I nearly stopped listening to music a decade or so ago for a few months during my post vinyl days and the digital interum and when I dug out the vinyl again all the joy back. That's my kind of science. Irrefutable.
 
May 28, 2015 at 1:25 AM Post #6,400 of 17,336
@biggie's 70's comment...... man I couldn't agree less with this statemtent regarding 70's vinyl vs CD. 70s and 80's vinyl is all I listen to and used to have many of the same albums on CD and the discs have long since been in the trash. the vinyl did get recycled but still much prefer it over CD equivalent album
 
May 28, 2015 at 1:29 AM Post #6,401 of 17,336
have you tried, beat a half decent bypass test? - put even a $140 ESI Juli@ class prosumer soundcard in series, level matched outputs and done a properly blinded ABX with statistical significant discrimination between the raw RIAA preamp analog out and the ADC-DAC chain?
 
that's really the only evidence any here will pay any attention at all too - otherwise it is just story telling
 
most likely your unconscious expectations telling the stories, shaping your conscious perception - this is simply a human limitation - all of us as humans suffer from - nothing to do with "intellectual honesty"
 
even those with reasons for claiming skilz get surprised when they try controlled listening - real audio pros, mixing engineers
 
May 28, 2015 at 2:07 AM Post #6,402 of 17,336
you can disregard it, understood....I've taken into account all the things you suggest, and others, and will take a wager bet from anywhere anytime to do a AB. the higher the bet the better! but i'm not interested in buying gear or learning new software to prove to anyone what's obvious. This get's into the whole problem of communication and sharing personal subjective experience which is nearly impossible in any aspect of living, so headfi is no different. I recommend vinyl to any kid out there who loves natural dynamic music and tone. I just wish the modern presses where all great...maybe pono is filling this digital gap for vinyl lovers? I don't know
 
May 28, 2015 at 2:42 AM Post #6,403 of 17,336
   
And this... ladies and gentlemen... is why no-one takes AS seriously in this forum.

Ahem - have you EVER measured what comes out of a turntable ? Using good ANALOG oscilloscope - or digital one that is good to say at least 100 MHz ?
 
If you did, such a blatant display of ( lack of understanding/lack of experience/lack of desire to improve things further/ etc - take your own pick ) simply would not have been possible.
 
Before you EVER make similar statement again - time to do your homework on this matter, perhaps ?
 
I have sprinkled more than enough clues in my previous posts already, do not expect me to react to any type of comment on this post - other than the one that genuinely is meant to help improving the present state of affairs and not as derogatory - as usually from you.
 
May 28, 2015 at 2:49 AM Post #6,404 of 17,336
  I've got to disagree. I'm right there with surviver. Dynamic range is better on a CD but real world dynamics in terms of how the ear seems to hear things is more alive and not by a small degree. This is beyond debate for anyone whose spent time enjoying vinyl on a decent setup, and it doesn't have to be over $1000. I don't know the science behind it and it does seem counter to the facts, but it is what it is. People who don't take this seriously are shooting themselves in the foot in terms of music enjoyment. The level of joy I get from vinyl is night and day over digital music. It might just be a personal thing and some people value different aspects of sound. In fact I do firmly believe this is what is at the bottom of the debate. But I nearly stopped listening to music a decade or so ago for a few months during my post vinyl days and the digital interum and when I dug out the vinyl again all the joy back. That's my kind of science. Irrefutable.

 
It's perfectly ok to like vinyl, and even to prefer it, but if we are talking about "high fidelity", or the ability to reproduce as accurately as possible the original master tape, then vinyl just can't compete and is inferior in every metric.
 
May 28, 2015 at 2:56 AM Post #6,405 of 17,336
  Ahem - have you EVER measured what comes out of a turntable ? Using good ANALOG oscilloscope - or digital one that is good to say at least 100 MHz ?

 
It's amazing to me that on the one hand you claim to have superhuman hearing which extends past 1MHz (and apparently you listen to a one-off audio system capable of reproducing that) but at the same time you listen to gypsy orchestras playing wildly out of time, and you apparently can't hear that.
 
 

 

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