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Testing audiophile claims and myths - Page 15

post #211 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Hopefully positive and followed up by lots of similar tests. I suspect that instead there will be lots of gloating and a refusal to do anymore tests.


The pro-camp are quite content with their perceived differences.  They've always been.  I hope that you realize this.  There's no gloating.  Why test anything but to please the skeptic?  But alas, there are no skeptics among the pro-cablers, are there?  OTOH, the anti-cablers are the ones who can't hear differences or can't afford to obtain the benefits of such differences.  So, in their displeasure, they question the validity of such differences.  IOW's, try to make it a non-issue in the quest for better sound.  Less expense.... NO?  Only such individuals will gloat about anything.  There are a few anti-cablers here who are genuinely about the sheer science of this.  Only a few.  The majority are here about their music and how they can make it sound best for the least amount of resources.  Few here have unlimited resources - cash.

 

Of course, there may well be a reasonably sized camp who are just here about 'I'm right while you are wrong' ego stroking exercise.  They'll also have reason to gloat about something.


Edited by aimlink - 10/15/10 at 4:14am
post #212 of 3037

at the extremes some cable constructions, RLC, shielding properties (measurable as "transfer impedances") do vary enough to potentially be audibly detected with some equipment combinations

 

anyone who wants to gloat over disproving "all cables sound the same" is just playing with a ridiculously simplistic straw man version of the debate


Edited by jcx - 10/15/10 at 10:04am
post #213 of 3037

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

Why test anything but to please the skeptic?

 

The best reason to test stuff is to save yourself money. That logic should appeal to everyone regardless of their audio beliefs. Why pay $500 for a wire if a $5 wire sounds the same? Once we understand that our ears can be tricked, then we know why testing is needed to learn the truth free of human bias.

 

Also, no knowledgeable audio skeptic says that all cables sound identical. Some wires have capacitance higher than usual, which when coupled with marginal gear can affect the frequency response. When I discuss this stuff I always add the word "competent," as in all competent cables should sound the same. And they should.

 

--Ethan

post #214 of 3037

Ok: Here's something that I've been wondering about with cable discussion:

 

The whole idea behind upgrading them is "weakest link" theory, correct? As in, the entire system will only work as well as the weakest link in the chain.

 

 

Wouldn't the solder points or the electrical path on the PCB of the components used represent a "weaker link" than some heavy gauge cable? (even if the cable wasn't terribly fancy, so long as it's functional)

post #215 of 3037
Thread Starter 

Cables are easy to switch, the internal parts of an amp etc are not. So I think you are right gsilver, why do the sceptics ignore huge parts of the chain and announce the cable is the weakest link?

 

post #216 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Cables are easy to switch, the internal parts of an amp etc are not. So I think you are right gsilver, why do the sceptics ignore huge parts of the chain and announce the cable is the weakest link?

 


I have never read a pro-cabler announcing the cable as the weakest link.  Where have you?  GSilver brought up that issue all on his own.

post #217 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

I have never read a pro-cabler announcing the cable as the weakest link.  Where have you?  GSilver brought up that issue all on his own.


Maybe they don't do it directly, but by boasting about the improvements of sound quality (or whatever) of the overall system with shiny new cables --> this only makes sense if the cable is a weak link.


Edited by xnor - 10/17/10 at 9:52am
post #218 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post


Maybe they don't do it directly, but by boasting about the improvements of sound quality (or whatever) of the overall system with shiny new cables --> this only makes sense if the cable is a weak link.


I'm referring to the weakest link and not merely, a weak link.  All parts of a system each form a potential weak link.  However, to claim a particular point the weakest link is a wholly different ball game.  Which pro-cabler claims this with regard to cables, even indirectly, i.e., claim that cables are the weakest link?  It's amazing over time how the points made here grow distorted, abused and how complete fiction develops from poor understanding.... and might I add... poor intentions?

 

But then again, one could, from a facetious standpoint, make the claim that since cables are what link the different components in the audio chain together, then they ARE the links and are therefore of utmost importance and indispensable.  However, this isn't what we're here about is it?  We're here about cables being a given in the audio chain. We're here, not about whether or not a cable should be used, but instead, about whether or not it matters which cable is used.  It's in this latter context that the cable has never been claimed the weakest link by a procabler.  Pro-cablers simply claim that it does matter which cable is used and not all cables sound the same.  IOW's, you can change the sound of your system by cable rolling.  Where that makes for a claim of cables now becoming the weakest link?  All I've seen is a distortion of a valid point put forward by GSilver. 


Edited by aimlink - 10/17/10 at 10:15am
post #219 of 3037

Pro cablers do not claim that cables are the weakest link.

 

On the other hand, a lot of audiophiles claim that your system is only as good as its weakest link. For a pro cabler that adheres to this idea, the weakest link in a non cable believer's system IS the cables, since that person will use no name ones.

I think that's what objectivists mean when they say that pro cablers declare cables the weakest link.

post #220 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos974 View Post

Pro cablers do not claim that cables are the weakest link.

 

On the other hand, a lot of audiophiles claim that your system is only as good as its weakest link. For a pro cabler that adheres to this idea, the weakest link in a non cable believer's system IS the cables, since that person will use no name ones.

I think that's what objectivists mean when they say that pro cablers declare cables the weakest link.


The only context in which such a claim would be made is if a pro-cabler witnessed a user with perfect gear connected together by lamp-cord.  Since such a setup doesn't exist...., I'd be surprised if a pro-cabler made the 'weakest link' claim as being the cables.

post #221 of 3037

So, if someone had a hypothetical system with a full Naim or full Linn setup worth 10000$, connected with Monoprice/Radioshack basic cables in an acoustically retreated room, isn't the weakest link going to be the cables for the cable believer?

 

PS: If you don't like Linn or Naim, feel free to replace it by any other system you may find good at 10k$, you can't replace the cabling of course.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

The only context in which such a claim would be made is if a pro-cabler witnessed a user with perfect gear connected together by lamp-cord.  Since such a setup doesn't exist...., I'd be surprised if a pro-cabler made the 'weakest link' claim as being the cables.
post #222 of 3037
Thread Starter 

Here and on other forums threads are posted all the time by people worried that the cable is somehow limiting the performance of their hifi. Whether that is referred to as the weakest link or not is really semantics. The issue is that blind testing has shown pretty comprehensively that cables do not make the differences that are claimed for them. Further blind testing has shown that speakers and room treatments and speaker positioning has a far greater effect than pretty much anything else. See the writings of Floyd Toole and the blind tests by Harman International for further evidence of that.

 

 

post #223 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos974 View Post

So, if someone had a hypothetical system with a full Naim or full Linn setup worth 10000$, connected with Monoprice/Radioshack basic cables in an acoustically retreated room, isn't the weakest link going to be the cables for the cable believer?

 

PS: If you don't like Linn or Naim, feel free to replace it by any other system you may find good at 10k$, you can't replace the cabling of course.

 

Quote:

 

So price makes it perfect?  I don't see why that is.  AFAIK, there's no perfect system simply because man is the judge.
 

post #224 of 3037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Here and on other forums threads are posted all the time by people worried that the cable is somehow limiting the performance of their hifi. Whether that is referred to as the weakest link or not is really semantics. The issue is that blind testing has shown pretty comprehensively that cables do not make the differences that are claimed for them. Further blind testing has shown that speakers and room treatments and speaker positioning has a far greater effect than pretty much anything else. See the writings of Floyd Toole and the blind tests by Harman International for further evidence of that.


I can see where if we throw very clear statements into the realm of semantics or word games, then discussions become useless.

 

You yourself here are demonstrating that there are far greater factors to consider than the influence of cables.  I've genuinely never read a pro-cabler refute this.

post #225 of 3037

Let's clarify a few things first,
 

Not once have I said that price made perfection, as you can indeed check I did merely say a good system.

 

The price was merely an indication, it was mainly to avoid comments such as "low-fi rig can't reveal cables",  the example above could work with most rigs. For example, let's consider your own rig, which I suppose you like, replace all cables with basic Radioshack/Monoprices ones, and the headphone cables by the manufacturers' originals. Would you consider the cables, or some of the cables the weakest link of  this rig?

 

Second, would you say you believe that cables are important when it comes to SQ?

Third,do you believe in the, "your system is only as good as the weakest link" theory?

 

If the answer to the 2 last question is no, then the explanation I had for the claim, cables are the weakest link does not apply to you.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimlink View Post

So price makes it perfect?  I don't see why that is.  AFAIK, there's no perfect system simply because man is the judge.
 

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