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Testing audiophile claims and myths - Page 99

post #1471 of 3124

We're about to hit 100 pages of yes you can and no you can't. Why is it so important to 'prove' anything? Measurements don't prove what you can hear. They are a tool derived from listening to help in design. Cart before the horse if you use it as proof as they are not all encompassing.

 

Try for yourself on something that is good enough to matter (Generally not computers or portable) tongue_smile.gif and judge for yourself. If you don't hear it or care, great! If you do, also great but no one should tell another what he or she can perceive.

 

I'm of the (repeatablewink_face.gif) opinion that much of this is quite audible but I really don't care if it's important to anyone else. I do care that folks are told to close their minds due to a few zealots that think they know everything.

post #1472 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

We're about to hit 100 pages of yes you can and no you can't. Why is it so important to 'prove' anything? Measurements don't prove what you can hear. They are a tool derived from listening to help in design. Cart before the horse if you use it as proof as they are not all encompassing.

 

Try for yourself on something that is good enough to matter (Generally not computers or portable) tongue_smile.gif and judge for yourself. If you don't hear it or care, great! If you do, also great but no one should tell another what he or she can perceive.

 

I'm of the (repeatablewink_face.gif) opinion that much of this is quite audible but I really don't care if it's important to anyone else. I do care that folks are told to close their minds due to a few zealots that think they know everything.

 

I don't think anyone is really arguing that others can't hear the difference. Just that the difference doesn't exist. And measurements and blind testing are really the only ways to accurately test that.

 

The perception of sound is very easily distorted, which is why I fully believe that people who say they hear a difference in optical cables etc are telling the truth. The only thing I doubt is that if that difference is really there, which is where things like blind testing come into play.


You're not crazy if you notice a difference that has been proven to not be there, it's totally normal in fact. Like I said before the mind is a powerful thing.

post #1473 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy4 View Post

 

I don't think anyone is really arguing that others can't hear the difference. Just that the difference doesn't exist. And measurements and blind testing are really the only ways to accurately test that.

 

The perception of sound is very easily distorted, which is why I fully believe that people who say they hear a difference in optical cables etc are telling the truth. The only thing I doubt is that if that difference is really there, which is where things like blind testing come into play.


You're not crazy if you notice a difference that has been proven to not be there, it's totally normal in fact. Like I said before the mind is a powerful thing.

 

Hmmm...I think it all come down to our "wallet" because of at what limit should you spend for a cable that really give you that 99% accurate performance and not paying x2 or 3x that amount for an extra 0.1%. "This" concern me the most... 

post #1474 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

We're about to hit 100 pages of yes you can and no you can't. Why is it so important to 'prove' anything?

Because we don't wanna be ignorant phools.

 

Quote:
Measurements don't prove what you can hear. They are a tool derived from listening to help in design. Cart before the horse if you use it as proof as they are not all encompassing.

Measurements add much needed objectivity to audio. Also, if you know you cannot reliably tell a 0.1 dB deviation from flat then we can say with a very high probability that you won't be able to tell a 0.001 dB deviation from flat (for example a cable).

 

There's data from listening tests for many other things, such as audibility harmonic distortion, phase shift/group delay etc.

 

If you look for measurements that are all encompassing: null difference tests. Google the Carver challenge.

 

 

Quote:
Try for yourself on something that is good enough to matter (Generally not computers or portable) tongue_smile.gif and judge for yourself. If you don't hear it or care, great! If you do, also great but no one should tell another what he or she can perceive.

What I find much more objectionable is people making bold claims without anything to back it up other than anecdotes. If nobody questions those claims they get accepted and repeated in certain circles.

I've seen people laugh at audiophiles because of such claims, some of which honestly are ridiculous.

 

 

Quote:

I'm of the (repeatablewink_face.gif) opinion that much of this is quite audible but I really don't care if it's important to anyone else. I do care that folks are told to close their minds due to a few zealots that think they know everything.

What does an opinion prove? What has an opinion to do with evidence, facts and truth?

 

Regarding being open/closed-minded, open-minded means being willing to consider new ideas (NOT unconditionally!) which science promotes and thrives on.

Closed-mindedness on the other hand is defined as:

- misinterpreting evidence ("measurements don't prove what you can hear")

- making invalid causal connections ("therefore measurements are useless" or "I cannot explain it, therefore it's magic"))

- eliminate alternative explanations prematurely (for example placebo, the mind playing tricks on myself, bias etc.).

 

Btw, there's a nice video about this on youtube. Let me quote this line:

Quote:
Rehearsing your own prejudices such as "You think you know it all" or "You're closed-minded" is the definition of being TRULY closed-minded.

Ohh, the irony.


Edited by xnor - 10/17/12 at 10:24am
post #1475 of 3124
Funny how everyone hears things that aren't there. I heard huge differences between two DACs that magically disappeared once I did a blind test. Not only could I not tell them apart , I couldn't tell when the actual switch between them was made in real time. Anyone who doesn't even consider placebo is doing themselves a huge injustice.
Edited by supra1988t - 10/17/12 at 9:45am
post #1476 of 3124
Quote:

Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

Try for yourself on something that is good enough to matter (Generally not computers or portable) tongue_smile.gif and judge for yourself. If you don't hear it or care, great! If you do, also great but no one should tell another what he or she can perceive.

 

I'm going to mention something I haven't pointed to here in the past. On several occasions, I've been challenged by people who claim they can hear the unhearable and I've talked about the comparison tests I did to determine one way or the other for myself. These argumentative souls then proceed to tell me they've done tests too and describe how they did it and what they heard. Then I go into a little more detail about how I set up controls, and they say they set up the same controls. This goes back and forth a few times and eventually they fall into a description of the methods they used to compare that contradicts the method they described earlier.

 

 

I've been polite enough not to point these things out publicly. But it's happened several times. The problem is, the people who claim to be able to hear the differences that are quite clearly inaudible are the ones who don't bother to do any sort of controlled comparison like that to find out whether they can actually perceive. They're invested in the results so much, they can't be bothered to go to the trouble to find out if they are right or wrong. And they are often so invested in their argument that they make up little "white lies" to prove their point. I guess it's the internet...

 

post #1477 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

They're invested in the results so much, they can't be bothered to go to the trouble to find out if they are right or wrong. And they are often so invested in their argument that they make up little "white lies" to prove their point. I guess it's the internet...

or (trying to avoid) cognitive dissonance

post #1478 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

or (trying to avoid) cognitive dissonance

 

Cognitive dissonance:

 

 

biggrin.gif

 

se

post #1479 of 3124

I understand the crusade against snake oil. Plenty of it but there's also enough good things about with repeatable results. You don't need to believe it. No one has ever been convinced on a message board, LOL. I'm all for measurements in good engineering but there's more to it. Seems like most only get one half of the picture or the other and hunker down. I'll just go on my merry and better sounding wink_face.gif way. Bye.


Edited by goodvibes - 10/17/12 at 3:26pm
post #1480 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

No one has ever been convinced on a message board, LOL. I'm all for measurements in good engineering but there's more to it. Seems like most only get one half of the picture or the other and hunker down. I'll just go on my merry and better sounding wink_face.gif way. Bye.

Again, that's a closed-minded attitude. Maybe you didn't read my reply to your previous post? If you did then this is irony^2.

 

 

I've learned and been convinced of many things on different forums including sound science on head-fi and I'm happy to change my beliefs (again, not unconditionally).


Edited by xnor - 10/17/12 at 4:21pm
post #1481 of 3124

I've learned a lot from message boards. (Heard a lot of hooey too!)

post #1482 of 3124

Yeah I've learned plenty from message boards too. I don't go to them just to spout out my own thoughts and opinions, I like to listen to other people too.

 

Too many people are to concerned about winning arguments (or in the case of head-fi justifying their purchases) that they miss out on learning opportunities.

post #1483 of 3124

Ain't that the truth! But most folks don't want to hear the advice to NOT spend a lot of money. They want the upsell.

post #1484 of 3124

Learning is not the same as convincing some one out of a bias. Perhaps I should have said no one that doesn't want to change their mind will be convinced on a message board but it should have been understood. Equating that to learning is exactly the sort of message board twist of meaning I get so tried of. Live long and prosper.


Edited by goodvibes - 10/17/12 at 5:50pm
post #1485 of 3124
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy4 View Post

 

I don't think anyone is really arguing that others can't hear the difference. Just that the difference doesn't exist. And measurements and blind testing are really the only ways to accurately test that.

 

The perception of sound is very easily distorted, which is why I fully believe that people who say they hear a difference in optical cables etc are telling the truth. The only thing I doubt is that if that difference is really there, which is where things like blind testing come into play.


You're not crazy if you notice a difference that has been proven to not be there, it's totally normal in fact. Like I said before the mind is a powerful thing.

You can't prove a difference doesn't exsist. That's the very point. It may or may not but measurements are not proof.

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