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post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindblock View Post

One thing I have learned in life is that statements of absolutes are ALWAYS WRONG <G>!!
You, my dear friend, just made an absolute statement
post #32 of 41
excellent. this is the kind of sense we need to save money in this forum. everyone here is encouraging one another to spend more, to get that upgrade, to feed the hobby.

everyone, this is basically the law of diminishing returns. the higher (read: more money you spend) you get up the ladder to "audio heaven", the less significant difference you'll perceive.

i looked into the cable theory, and the electricians are right! i haven't owned a silver cable in my life, but i do know for one thing, if i really do wish to hear a difference in sound, it should be an amp i'm looking to upgrade not the cable. cables are for pure aesthetic reasons. i wanted a twag for the looks of it. but now, seeing as i'm still in uni, i think i'll hold off buying everything. i took a listen at jh audio's offerings, and though there is a difference compared to what i've got, i can't justify the costs as i think about diminishing returns.

just my 2 cents. for the rest of you with awesome gear. i envy.
post #33 of 41
we are people that hear the difference despite there not being science and measurements to explain it. Same with a lot of "alternative" medicine. However I can't really debate this issue since while I have had many phones recabled it has always at the same time involved going from single ended to balanced (except in the one case with the APS Ety cable) so I can't claim which part of the process did what part of the sound change
post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by milesandcoltrane View Post
You, my dear friend, just made an absolute statement
You, sir, are correct.....and THAT is why I followed it with the <G>!! It was an all too feeble attempt at humor.....sorry I missed.....
post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by syn_fx View Post
Until we see proper double ABX blind test results showing that there is a difference, I know I won't be convinced. A good friend of mine who owns both the 13 and the 16, and is a professional offered whiplashaudio to participate in the tests, they refused. You can draw your own conclusions from this.
I first want to point out that discussing DBT is explicitly against the rules of this forum, except in the sound science subforum. I get your point that you won't be convinced without it, but all discussions of DBT do is cause arguments between the "I trust what I hear" camp and the "I trust science" camp, which does nobody any good.

Now my personal opinion...

I personally am not planning to buy a Twag cable or any other cable in that price range, though I do plan to compare the stock cable against the Enyo cable I already have. I got it for "free" with a remold, so even it that case I didn't spend a lot of money on it, but am definitely curious whether I will hear a difference (psychoacoustic or otherwise).

Amps, however, are IMO a great investment. I would go so far as to say that an amp is necessary to hear the JH13/16 at its full potential.
post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindblock View Post
This is all very interesting, but unfortunately it may be pointless.

If I hear a difference with a new cable and you do not hear a difference, can we both be “right”?? Or am I “wrong” to hear a difference with a new cable simply because I can’t measure a difference that I think would explain the difference in sonic profile I believe I am experiencing?

I do seem to recall that until Galileo turned his telescope towards observation of the movements of the planets and stars the Earth was in fact the center of the universe. And after being brought before The Inquisition for stating that the Earth revolved around the Sun, he was forced to recant and retire.

One thing I have learned in life is that statements of absolutes are ALWAYS WRONG <G>!!

So I will simply go back to HAPPILY listening to my Lossless files, which many people will find to be sonically no different from files ripped at 320kbps, through my TWag-rewired JH-13 Pros, which some people will possibly find to be sonically indistinguishable from Bose Triports.
That science is constantly evolving is all fine and well, but the science of transferring an electrical signal over a piece of copper wire (or silver, for that matter) is well understood and has been for quite some time. If we didn't fully understand the physics involved in this process, how would we create all the wonderful electronic gadgets and devices we have today? How would we create all the headphones, speakers, amplifiers, DACs and so on if we didn't understand something so basic?

I have not, and will not, call anybody who believes they hear a audible different between two pieces of wire a liar. However, realize that perception is not always the same as reality. There is a Youtube video of a presentation from the 2009 Audio Engineers Society that does a fine job of explaining the frailty of our auditory memory and why we can perceive differences where there actually are none.

You are more than welcome to continue happily listening to your music with whatever gear and media you wish - nobody is trying to stop you.
post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by JxK View Post
Say what you want to about absolutes...but buddy...the physics isn't much more complex than basic arithmetic. If you can add up a grocery list, then you should be able to take in the physics.

Just remember, we're all human, and as such have senses that can easily be fooled. Might I recommend you read up on suggestion as well as its close friend placebo. Then put the two together and you will start to understand psychoacoustics.
BTW, “buddy”, while I am clearly not as wizened as you, I have read a great deal of medical literature over the years and have more than a rudimentary knowledge base in psychoacoustics and the placebo effect, without even resorting to citing Wikipedia.

Your position brings to mind issues with many “placebo controlled clinical trials” of treatments for migraine headache, depression, etc. in which detractors cite the high response rates in patients treated with placebos…..would you say those placebo-treated patients are still depressed or their headaches were not relieved in spite of what they reported to the investigators??

That being said, and in deference, I stand corrected.....I don’t need to use my sense of hearing, which can too easily be fooled…..based upon my high school physics and basic arithmetic (not even math - good call) I find that it is clear that I can hear no difference.....and if I can find a calculator I just may be able to total my grocery list.

Now, where did I put that Tice Clock <G>!!
Stereophile: Tice R-4 TPT & Coherence ElectroTec EP-C "Clocks"
post #38 of 41
Well, I won't argue with the power of placebo. And you're right about the effect of placebo in medicine. If I remember properly (and don't quote me here) typical response rates to "placebo treatment" range between 20% to as high as 60% for certain conditions. Amazingly enough, that's not just statistically significant, but also with clinical significance.

I even remember speaking with one individual about this. He understood the science, and if asked would admit that he could not hear a difference in DBT. But when he saw that silver cable hooked up to his speakers, such was the power of the effect that he actually perceived a difference. Pretty neat stuff actually.

So was it worth the money? In his case, and for quite alot of members here, that's likely a good question. I will stand by the science myself, but I'll agree with you that it isn't always a black and white issue.

Good post by the way.
post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by JxK View Post
Well, I won't argue with the power of placebo. And you're right about the effect of placebo in medicine. If I remember properly (and don't quote me here) typical response rates to "placebo treatment" range between 20% to as high as 60% for certain conditions. Amazingly enough, that's not just statistically significant, but also with clinical significance.

I even remember speaking with one individual about this. He understood the science, and if asked would admit that he could not hear a difference in DBT. But when he saw that silver cable hooked up to his speakers, such was the power of the effect that he actually perceived a difference. Pretty neat stuff actually.

So was it worth the money? In his case, and for quite alot of members here, that's likely a good question. I will stand by the science myself, but I'll agree with you that it isn't always a black and white issue.

Good post by the way.
I was changing things in relatively rapid order, and it went like this:

(1) I replaced my previous LOD / Cable (which I had left on an airplane…..somehow remembered to pick up iPod, P-51 Mustang amp, and TF-10’s) with the SCSCag Viablue LOD…..the difference was not subtle through my TripleFi 10’s…..I recall being impressed with the pace, particularly in the low end (bass and percussion in particular)…..this combination clearly seemed faster than what I had been listening to before.

(2) A week later the JH-13’s arrived and I plugged them in and sat for hours in slack-jawed disbelief of what I was hearing…..MAJOR improvements in all dimensions with crisp highs, and a punchy bottom end and MUCH more precision in the stereo image including far greater depth…..the difference was night and day, like the difference between sound reproduction and musical presence.

(3) Three days later I switched in the TWag cable on the JH-13’s and subjectively noticed that the bottom end seemed to be tighter and even “faster” than before and there seemed to be even more air separating different instruments and voices and greater depth to the sonic image. I confess that I have not put the stock cable back on the JH-13’s for an extended listening set, but I DID critically listen to the same recordings on all three steps.

(4) I have not listened to the JH-13’s without the RSA P-51 Mustang amp with either cable so I cannot comment on any perceived differences with that combination…..and I have not heard the JH-16’s to compare the bottom end response of the two, but in this configuration to these ears the JH-13’s are nothing short of fantastic

As a side note, for years with my home system I was solidly in the “if I can’t measure or explain it there must not be a difference” camp. Then a friend brought over some cables and we re-wired the system…..later in the day, and after the friend had left, SWMBO came home and walked into the listening room and she immediately asked what I had changed…..she saw all the same components in the same positions but immediately heard a difference…..when I told her that we had re-cabled the system her immediate response was “I thought you always said that cables make no audible difference…..what else did you change?”…..I had to turn up the lights and show her the cables to get her to believe me, but she liked the change she was hearing.

post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by barleyguy View Post
I first want to point out that discussing DBT is explicitly against the rules of this forum, except in the sound science subforum. I get your point that you won't be convinced without it, but all discussions of DBT do is cause arguments between the "I trust what I hear" camp and the "I trust science" camp, which does nobody any good.
My post was not to discuss merits of ABX, DBT in general, or any testing methodology. I just stated my personal opinion and outlined exactly what I would need before buying cables!

I agree with your point on amps - a good one can make all the difference.
post #41 of 41
correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the cable itself doesn't make the difference, but the terminating points do. i've tried 2 silver lods before, 1 10 bucks more than the other and there was a difference. the only reason i could logically give was that they used different straight plugs. the same theory could be applied to earphone cables no?

so if we get a decently made quad braid cable in copper, teflon, or silver, just make sure you've got a decent terminating point, and i'm sure you'll get the same result as any high end boutique cable.
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