What creates soundstage in headphones?? - Page 3

Mostly imagination, unless it is a binaural recording IMO.

Steve Deckert (of Decware) says (in an article extolling the *virtues* of headphones for audiophile listening, mind you) that headphones basically *dont* image, flat-out, that it is just impossible for them to create that three-dimensional-space without three-dimensional space in which to work. (See "The Headphone advantage": http://www.decware.com/paper48.htm - I have learned much from steve's writings, which he conveniently compiles and makes available on his site...) Now, he's certainly not entirely correct - clearly headphones do produce some soundstage and imaging, and/or "headstage", but I think he is on to something nonetheless - I think there is something essentially different (not always necessarily worse, although I confess that I do prefer the "loudpseaker way," at a very constitutional level) about the way headphones stage/image - and, in that sense, they *dont* image/soundstage in the way loudspeakers do. 

But the other question, about *literally* how, or what qualities of the mechanism or the sound, produce it, I think basically nobody knows - that's one of the many mysterious aspects of hi-fi that are definitely experience-able and real but for which  we have not yet figured out the way to objectively measure or account (such as why cabls are improved by "burn-in").

Cheers. 

with a little help headphones can "Image" - Exactly like a loudspeaker system (at one listening position)

SVS Realizer "replicates" a real room, Loudspeakers setup with personal hrtf measurement, DSP, head angle tracking - the sound is convincingly "outside of your head"

http://www.smyth-research.com/technology.html

some head-fiers are convinced - look for posts by those who have actually heard it rather than the too many speculative denials/misunderstandings of the technology - this is not just another Dolby Headphone or crossfeed surround processor

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/418401/long-awaited-smyth-svs-realiser-now-available-for-purchase

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pianist 

Mostly imagination, unless it is a binaural recording IMO.

I see stuff like this a lot on head-fi, and it seems woefully misinformed. Binaural recording is one of dozens of types of stereo recording. Many methods of stereo recording produce very realistic stereo images that sound amazingly lifelike through headphones and speakers. Also it is quite simple and common for modern studio recordings to produce very realistic stereo images. I doubt there are too many working engineers that don't try very hard to place instruments in the mix in specific locations.

I've personally done many recordings of small jazz ensembles using simple stereo techniques (not binaural) that allow anyone to identify where each musician was in the physical space. In fact I almost never record binaurally because I find that other methods work better in a wider variety of playback types.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef 

Don't worry about sound stage unless you're listening to Classical music, I think, or something else where they're not playing the sound directly into the mic....

I really think the recording is what will make sound stage 'realistic'... quieter sounds will seem farther away, and louder ones will seem closer. Of course you have to know yourself what is actually normal to know what is far and what is close... If you've never heard and instrument live before you might not be capable of that.

The idea that headphones have anything to do with that... seems really silly. Like, unless they're really awful and over/under emphasizing certain frequencies, there's no reason for it not to sound like the recording.

I agree completely that the soundstage is in the recording. I disagree with the premise that quiet sounds sound farther away than loud sounds. I can record a sax with a single mic in a room and make it sound like it's on the other side of a room or like player is sitting next to your ear and in both cases I can make it exactly the same volume in the mix. IMO the depth of the sound stage is a product of the recording techniques specifically the distance of the instruments from the recording source. This distance can be real or manufactured.  I can place a microphone 10' from an instrument and record it that way or I can use effects (reverb, delay, etc) to achieve a similar sound.

As far as the height of the soundstage is concerned IMO it does not exist at all in the world of headphones and only exists in loudspeaker playback because of how modern loudspeakers are physically laid out. If height really were a component of soundstaqge many live classical recordings would sound like the orchestra was literally sitting 15' or more below you. I've never heard anyone describe the soundstage of a piece that way.

Originally Posted by mijbil 

Steve Deckert (of Decware) says (in an article extolling the *virtues* of headphones for audiophile listening, mind you) that headphones basically *dont* image, flat-out, that it is just impossible for them to create that three-dimensional-space without three-dimensional space in which to work. (See "The Headphone advantage": http://www.decware.com/paper48.htm

The DT770/Pro picture killed the credibility of this paper for me...it'd be like someone showing the picture of whatever old crummy car and explaining how awesome it is to drive a top of the range sports car.

Yes, you can get a 3D SS on headphones, yes height can be very audible too, but it's mostly dependent on the drivers/cups/back wave resonances against the earpads and pinna. So it's more random than anything else, but it's very real on powerful orthos when using angled earpads IME.

I think dynamics and detail retrieval seem to help with the soundstage.  The dynamics help with depth by helping to differentiate between softer and loader instruments and detail helps define there placement and edges. That is why I think dac and amps help change the size of the soundstage. Ever listen to a setup that has bad dynamics and detail? The soundstage collapses and becomes one dimensional.

The answer is simple,

Phase, we can detect phase with reference to other waves only not on its own. The better a headphone driver responds to phase changes and the faster it does the more accurate the sound stage. However! this is not the only factor, the internal construction can be open or closed, waves reflect back in open mediums with no phase reversal but for closed they are reflected back in 180 Degree's (perfect reflectors ideal concept angles are different for different set of waves) the construction and the volume of air also affect how phase is referenced (how we perceive phase)

Some images to help

Sine wave  y(x,t)= A X sine(x + 0)  sine wave with amplitude A and 0 radian phase

Sine wave  y(x,t)= A X sine(x + pi/2)  sine wave with amplitude A and pi/2 radian 90degrees phase

Sine wave  y(x,t)= A X sine(x + pi)  sine wave with amplitude A and pi radian 180 degrees phase (reflected wave of the one shown in the 1st figure)

Hope this clears the air.

Rohan

Note: The line where i said we only detect phase difference with a reference is quite important with music that has a large number instruments phase response helps however for music which is digitally produced phase doesn't play a role in sound stage. Reference is always important.

Note: i only discussed "imaging" part of sound stage. There are other parts to it as well.

Cheers

Rohan