BHSE or Woo WES? - Page 8  

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMoney 

The long and short of it is that all three KG designed amps trump anything else out there. The difference is not subtle. If you can afford one of these amps, by all means buy/build one. You won't be sorry.

What were the biggest differences you heard between the BH and DIY T2 vs. the LL prototype and WES?  The WES seems to have its share of fans, though it seems to be more with the Sennheiser cans than the 007 or 009.

I wonder how much the GES has in common with the original KG design.  Part of the reason I opted for the GES was because I liked the GS-1 and had hoped the GES retained similar characteristics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachu 

Curious to hear the KGSSHV and BHSE against the newest iteration of the Cavalli LL . And if i recall correctly, the Cavalli LL was powered via a single ended source at the NY meet where you heard it.

The impressions out of Canjam RMAF seemed to be very favorable for the Cavalli LL and it was driven by a proper balanced source there..

 

So it will be interesting indeed to see what a balanced source like the Assemblage DAC 3.1 can do with the amp and compare the amps on equal footing.  Perhaps i will get to compare the two at the NorCal meet in Feb as I plan to be there.

 

Yes, I did hear the prototype out of a single ended source at the NYC meet. Its nice amp, to be sure. It may be better than any of the Stax production level amps. It certainly bested the old SRM-T1 I was using. But it was blown out of the water by the BH that was on hand... It only took about 20 seconds of listening to the BH to know that it is something special.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once you've had a chance to sample the other amps. I'm sure there will be a few KGSSHVs running around at that meet and N3rdling has a BH that he brought to the last Bay Area meet. The Mafia should be well represented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMoney 

Yes, I did hear the prototype out of a single ended source at the NYC meet. Its nice amp, to be sure. It may be better than any of the Stax production level amps. It certainly bested the old SRM-T1 I was using. But it was blown out of the water by the BH that was on hand... It only took about 20 seconds of listening to the BH to know that it is something special.

 

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once you've had a chance to sample the other amps. I'm sure there will be a few KGSSHVs running around at that meet and N3rdling has a BH that he brought to the last Bay Area meet. The Mafia should be well represented.

i have heard the BH and the BHSE briefly.. a while ago.. sure is nice what i heard. we'll see..and yes i am in conversation with Milos on this. I am looking forward to meet him finally more than anything else :)
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysian 

What were the biggest differences you heard between the BH and DIY T2 vs. the LL prototype and WES?  The WES seems to have its share of fans, though it seems to be more with the Sennheiser cans than the 007 or 009.

 

I wonder how much the GES has in common with the original KG design.  Part of the reason I opted for the GES was because I liked the GS-1 and had hoped the GES retained similar characteristics.

FWIW I posted some very brief impressions after the NYC meet.

You are on justin's list, right? Just be patient. Good things come to those who wait. You will be very happy with it, I'm sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAttorney 

The problem with NOT having in depth reviews is that the less experienced users have almost nothing to base their decisions on. Whether a reviewer just copies markTeting BS has nothing to do with the length of the review. Whether their tastes, experience and perspective is right for the reader is another matter,

 

It's the inevitable result of internet forums that the reader has to continually make judgments on how worthwhile is the information they are reading. But their best chance is if there is a balanced selection of short, medium and long reviews, plus the one-liners from a cross-range of perspectives.

 

That's why it was so good to see ASR's comparison of the BHSE v KGSS. Not what I'd call in-depth, but nevertheless this was the first time that I can recall that a review of the BHSE went beyond one or two lines. The ongoing thread on the BHSE does overall provide good information, but it would of been much more informative, and in a shorter space of time, if a few more reviews like that had been posted along the way. 

 

 

 

 

This is true, there were three reasons why I placed an order for the BHSE, one was because of a post Birgir wrote about it, the other two were looks and build quality. 

I would have ordered the BHSE already if it could come as fast as my Liquid Fire (2 weeks from order). Honestly I hope the Liquid Lightning or the Eddy current amp can beat the BHSE so I can get out of the dilemma of (1) getting something inferior and (2) getting the best but have to wait 2 years...

Googleli,

I believe Justin is building 45 BHSE's but has only 43 orders although I'm not 100% sure, if this is the case, if you did place an order for one now, you might get it sooner than you think.

Interesting though that the LL won't work properly with SE sources.  That brings up memories of the Singlepower ES amp which also had to be driven balanced since they couldn't perform the phase split perfectly.  Same deal with the WES hence  extra tubes on the back panel... 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysian 

I wonder how much the GES has in common with the original KG design.  Part of the reason I opted for the GES was because I liked the GS-1 and had hoped the GES retained similar characteristics.

The PSU is a bit different but the GES is mostly identical to the AC-coupled design.  It's lovely amp and similar in many ways to the HEV90.  The WES uses most of the same circuitry

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer 

 The WES uses most of the same circuitry

 

No way. 

The gilmore design used for the WES and the HEV90 both single ended inputs with the phase splitter as the second stage. The WES specifically says fully balanced, and has the extra tubes  in the back (to convert the SE input to balanced) before the volume control.

The problems in the ES-1 were called out on the page since before Mikahil built an ES-1

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/hdgsta.htm

down near the end:

Last comment regarding the adjustments which can be done statically or dynamically. In the case of a balanced design, both branch are similar but in an unbalanced design, it is better to adjust the trimmer so that the "lower" branch has a slightly higher voltage. In this way, the amp is adjusted for DC but also for AC.

With a sinusoidal generator and oscilloscope, it is pretty easy to adjust the trimmer so that each branch of the final stage input receives a signal in phase opposition but identical amplitude.

Its not a problem with the ES-1, but a problem the amp has had since it was originally designed. By STAX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1961 

This is true, there were three reasons why I placed an order for the BHSE, one was because of a post Birgir wrote about it, the other two were looks and build quality. 

I went back to the 1st page of this thread - and remembered that I had voted for the WES, primarily because of it's allegedly warmer sound.

But months have gone by and now I have the BHSE on order. The reasons for changing my mind:

• Various comments that the BHSE's "straight-wire-with gain" neutrality didn't mean that it was too "clinical"
• The WES has various options that considerably adds to the price. Having gone this far, I'd have to have the max'd version
• The WES has too many tubes - the lifetime on these is unclear to me, whereas a number of posts have said that the BHSE's tubes should last years
• Justin's legendary build quality - although I haven't noticed any complaints about Woo either
• Getting in on the tail end of the 45ers means that the BHSE's wait time for me is months, not years
• On looks it's a draw - as far as I can tell from photos

Still would have loved to compare the two, but that is hugely impractical outside of the US.

Despite Spritzer's comments, I'd still class the WES as a real contender - different people have different sound preferences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod 

No way. 

 

Well yes and no. Some is the same, some is not.  On the GES and HEV90, both are designed for single ended inputs only, so

the phase splitter is adjustable, and you adjust for identical amplitudes on both sides of the amp.

The WES has a differential input, and in balanced mode, the output amplitudes of both sides are the same.

But due to low gain in the differential input stage, unbalanced inputs do not generate the same output amplitudes.

The designs are very similar.

Until I get the BHSE the only amp I have is the Pico Slim and although it's only a very small portable amp,it's very well built and also  gives a very good SQ and thats just using it with my ipod, when I use it with my K-01 it's even better. I've a feeling when I get the BHSE + SR-009's I'll be in for a treat, but thats only IMO. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMoney 

FWIW I posted some very brief impressions after the NYC meet.

 

You are on justin's list, right? Just be patient. Good things come to those who wait. You will be very happy with it, I'm sure.

Yup, ran through both the NYC meet impressions.  The pics are great, as well.  Simply based on those impressions alone, I feel the BHSE would be a better match for the 007A.  I think I'm part of batch 2, so am hoping 1H12 will be realistic, and that the BHSE will be my end-game electrostat amp.  I'll probably pick up an EC amp and a HD800 down the line as a secondary rig,

Thanks spritzer and KG for the comments on the GES vs. the original design.  I opted for the GES over the 323S based on the comments at the end of the Headwize build and found them accurate to my experience with the GES.  I don't listen to music very loudly, so any issues at high volume aren't relevant for me, and I think the GES is a pretty wonderful amp, especially after tube rolling (which isn't very expensive for 6S4s and 12AX7s).  The sound is non-fatiguing and pretty liquid, but the thing I like most about the amp is that it gets out of the way and adjusts itself well to what's behind it.

Re single-ended vs. balanced inputs, does that actually make an audible difference for electrostatic headphone chains?  I was reading up on the Stax thread for info, and I read that electrostatic headphones are balanced by design.  My DAC and preamp are both balanced, but I'm going unbalanced from my preamp to GES.  I've heard unbalanced/balanced is relevant only for long cable runs, but it seems like some people swear that they can hear the difference, and I was curious if this was less or more relevant for electrostats.

Right now, power is the top thing I want for my 007A, so the BHSE seems to have the WES beat for that.  My preamp (at least in my current GES chain) already accounts for all of the advantages I would've been interested from the WES.  I really want to hear what the 007A sounds like with something like the BHSE driving it, as a number of people have told me the 007 series is pretty remarkable with a BHSE/DIY T2 caliber amp.

I have a 007mk1 on hand. SHould have the new higher power, further improved Cavalli LL prototype arriving at home in about a week's time. Will be interesting. 

Balance or RCA shouldn't matter and any perceived difference would be down to the output stage of the source. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod 

No way. 

 

The gilmore design used for the WES and the HEV90 both single ended inputs with the phase splitter as the second stage. The WES specifically says fully balanced, and has the extra tubes  in the back (to convert the SE input to balanced) before the volume control.

 

The problems in the ES-1 were called out on the page since before Mikahil built an ES-1

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/hdgsta.htm

 

down near the end:

Last comment regarding the adjustments which can be done statically or dynamically. In the case of a balanced design, both branch are similar but in an unbalanced design, it is better to adjust the trimmer so that the "lower" branch has a slightly higher voltage. In this way, the amp is adjusted for DC but also for AC.

With a sinusoidal generator and oscilloscope, it is pretty easy to adjust the trimmer so that each branch of the final stage input receives a signal in phase opposition but identical amplitude.

 

Its not a problem with the ES-1, but a problem the amp has had since it was originally designed. By STAX.

Yes way.  The WES is just the GES differential stage with the phase splitter added to the back panel since it would never work with RCA's otherwise, not enough gain. 

Almost all Stax amps have non-equal rail voltages but that's due to the offset.  Mikhail used equal rail voltages which resulted in 110V worth of offset.  That the amps couldn't function as a phase splitters was due to the low gain and incorrect tubes used.  The way the amp is designed by Stax doesn't have this issue and neither do the multitude of different takes they did on the same design.  When working with lower mu tubes they did add an extra stage and even some truly scary voltages.