Price versus Performance - Page 2

I like to look at things I'm going to buy on the basis of how long its going to last me.

The shorter the service life of an item, the less I'm willing to spend on it. In the case of cell phones, computer parts, and various electronics, I almost always go as close to the most "bang for the buck" item possible if its only going to last a couple years before it goes into obsolescence.

If its going to be one of those "last forever" things like audio components or bicycles, that don't really go obsolete, I'm generally willing to spend more since I'm gonna be stuck with it for a long time.

Fantastic post!

I know people who actively seek the in your head sound, ie, no sound stage. At the same time, there are people who have never head a live band to know what music should sound like. The bigger problem is that listening to music on headphones is not always the same thing to different people. I paid for my rig because I want to hear something that is as close to a real life performance without having to jump up to speakers [for noise reasons more so than outright cost]. I want the best imaging I can afford. People just aren't into music these days and don't want to go to gigs. As a result, sound stage is just one of those things that can wow people and I think this is one of the reasons why the K701 is such a polarising headphone. There is no way Guns N' Roses sounds that spacious in real life. However, unless you enjoy live music, you'd easily think these headphones are the greatest thing on the planet. I don't feel like commenting on the other features that make the K701 so polarising.

I remember talking to someone who asked me about instrument separation and how I learned how far apart things should be. I couldn't answer him. How do you not know this? Haven't you been to a concert before? Didn't you mess around as a teenager and have some pathetic band? In a similar way, I remember being asked if I thought French horns sounded odd on a K701. I had no idea what a French horn should sound like due to a lack of orchestral experience. Fewer younger people have experience. It's all iPod this and download that.

Regarding reviews, I think it does take a month or so, possibly more, to completely 'get' a component whether that be a headphone or amp or dac or cable. However, you will be able to understand most of the differences in the first day. To write a review in the first week or two takes a lot of listening and I'd assume that's what all these reviewers do. Most of them are probably like myself - uni students with tonnes of time .

I, like the rest of the people here, want the best performance for my dollar. But knowing that this is.... this hobby is one based on personal enjoyment (like all hobbies), I am going to be paying a little more than I should. This is just based on a price to material margin however.

Personally I think that paying 300 bucks is well worth it for what I'm getting. Being able to isolate myself from the world and hear my music the way it was meant to be heard anytime I want? Of course I need songs and a player but what I'm getting out of my music is well worth the price.

I do think that some things cost more than they are worth though; some things such as amps and interconnects shouldn't be priced as much as they are; headphones are at a good price IMO though.

In general, you get what you pay for.

Portable amplifiers and custom interconnects instantly popped into my mind while reading this. They shouldn't cost as much as they do now.

Yea... I had a RSA Tomahawk that I used through a LoD through the T51s line out port to my Triple.Fis. The sound increase I was getting was NOWHERE near the price of 300 bucks that it's priced at. I sold it and bought some UM3Xs

I'll never get past acoustic rocks or some other crap people try to sell you.

You should really read the book I recommended in my earlier post, it has some very enlightening remarks regarding "snake oil." While I admit that there are companies that try to push things too far, a good deal of companies, including portable amps have a good deal of value and worth to them. Just because you personally cannot hear it does not mean that there is nothing to the technical advances that these companies have uncovered or incorporated in their product. Take for example cables and the development of OCC versus the old ways of extruding copper, or perhaps the use of silver versus copper. And in terms of portable audio, the difference between using a single 9v battery versus 2 9v's to create a better virtual ground. These things have tons of technical merit and a good deal of the folks here may not appreciate what it does to the sound because of their lack of ability to hear what's going on.

Then again you could say "well if I can't hear it, why should I buy it?" I agree with that statement -if you can't hear it, you shouldn't buy it. Leave it to others to buy it, but also... and here is the huge BUT to that statement, Dont call it snake oil. It's easy to call something snake oil just because you don't perceive it but first ask yourself why. The most common complaints people have are wires, but to be blunt, Science tells you that some wires are better than others.

Take for example USB and other digital connectors. Science tells you that the way you manufacture a USB cable matters with regards to signal degradation, but very few are able to determine a difference between them -does that make it snake oil? Are you telling me that science is wrong? And that's one of the things that really annoys me between procable people and these quick to judge snakeoil folks. The snake oil folks keep saying, oh science says this and science says that.....BS. In this particular case science says the EXACT opposite and yet the folks in this camp still enlist science as their main source of being correct.

Read the book, it can clear up a lot of the issues you've brought up and will make you question a lot more regarding your ability to hear.

In terms of coloring your sound, it depends on what your reference is for what you are listening to (reasons why I attend a lot of live concerts -my favorite being small bars with acoustic sets). If you feel that the sound is being coloured (eg. it is too warm compared to what you would hear in a concert setting or if the band were simply in front of you), then that's theoretically bad because it moves you further away from the true sound -that would be marked under sonic degradation. On the other hand if that is how the band is supposed to sound then that is an approach towards the right direction. But coinciding with my initial post, if you lack additional words to describe what the cables do you may need to educate yourself more on what the music should sound. Once again if that sounds like too much of a chore, go to radioshack buy some cables and be happy.

As for amps and tweaks, these are far from snake oil, unless you are calling science snake oil. Tweaks that people make are meant as technical improvements based on science. Changing capacitors is probably one of the most common practices. When you change capacitors you are affecting how the sound waves pass through the system and you affect how much of the original audio gets processed in the system. Even using 2 9V batteries in a portable system can greatly affect how a system will affect the sound through the system because it is able to create a more accurate virtual ground.

And if you still think its snake oil then I guess there is only one thing left to say...."Science is Snake oil"

I'm willing to pay more to get that little extra bit.. That sounds like a man who can afford it.. I can to a certain degree.. I just have to make sacrifices.. I will more then likely get the Nuforce upgrade, then stop upgrading for a better CD/SACD/DVDA player.. Then focus on the HD800 & auditor..Or get a 702 as a place holder for my player till I get the HD800..

IMO in the world of costly audio (people around me can't even imagine spending 60 bucks on IEMs) there is no such thing as PPR (price-performance ratio). They're all expensive for some reasons, what you need to look out for is whether most of those reasons benefit you.

Yea people freak out when they figure out how much I spend on my equipment; now I really just say that I don't wanna talk about it (if it's with friends) or around 30 bucks if it's people I don't know.

And yea I think that you have to find the things that work for you. Luckily you can make most (around 80 percent) of the money back if you sell it on here or ebay to another person (and I love the buying/selling forum on here) if the product is not for you.

True, for a high price durability is usually a must. I'll make the odd exception for rarities regarding audio gear though. Besides, 60 euros for an AKG K240 DF makes for a very nice price/performance ratio .

I'm generally of the "you get what you pay for" camp.

There are, of course, many exceptions - probably with more examples of overpriced gear than "underpriced". There's often really great deals on classic gear in the used markets. Then there's products which just seem gratuitously expensive, that make you wonder whether the price is their main feature.

In my experience, to attain something truly special - beyond extremely good - is not so cheap, and the cost will indeed sting a good bit.

I don't buy into the traditional diminishing returns viewpoint. Once a really superb system starts coming together, the music "opens up" and recordings start to take on a life of their own. The subtle and not-so-subtle improvements start eliminating those last reproduction flaws and deficiencies that your mind may have been fixating on, and the end result is a huge jump in musical enjoyment. Now when I was playing with digital sources a few years ago, I did seem to hit diminishing returns pretty hard there, in the $500-$5000 range - I don't like digital sources, though (the new $6K PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC/Transport combo may break that, but I'll have to spend more time with them)

I've gone through a ton of gear to experience all the sonic flavors and styles, etc. Now I'm ready to focus completely on one system, with the best components I can manage, to do it all.