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Why do CDs need to be mastered differently to Vinyl? - Page 3

post #31 of 47
Some modern records, and perhaps Death Magnetic although I do not know for sure, use the original digital master as the source - and so if that was recorded with brickwall levels, the vinyl will be, too.
post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Publius View Post
I've compared ~6 non-audiophile new releases on LP vs CD (when the two were released simultaneously), across 2 or 3 different labels, and did not find any evidence to support the claim that the vinyl master did not use the CD master. Obviously that's not a great sample set
well, we both haven't compared many releases anyway...that magnetic hard rock thingie is clipped to death on CD and LP, and not in that video game?

that Lee Fields album is hard clipped on the CD, but not on the LP...and not in the previous compilations either.

this dub album is clipped in the Island edition, but not in the Hip'o'Select: Super Ape

there's no hard rule indeed...we need more samples

but I don't listen to comtemporary music anyway...and I can't be hassled to buy vinyls in 2010.

it's like video games piracy, those who pay the full price always get jacked in the end...they want it loud to appeal to the ipod community, fine!
post #33 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
maybe I can make 15" mp3's of my two files? I dunno what the rules are.
off thread but its a sad indictement of our times when we are not sure if we can publicly post a 15 second piece of music.

So we are living in the free world? Yeah right, free for who?
post #34 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Publius View Post
However, that is not immediately obvious with a zoomed-out waveform plot, because various (unrelated) effects of LP mastering/playback mean that the "flat tops" of clipped signal on the CD become skewed, and no longer reaching peak value, on LP.
You may have inadvertantly gone someway to answer my original question here.

BTW Publius, you sound like you have experience in this field, is this so?

If so I'd be interested to know your opinion why 90% of CD's in my collection err towards sounding flat and lifeless, whereas most of my Albums don't. Are you saying that this has nothing to do with the mastering?
post #35 of 47
Um... you're not consuming enough mind-altering substances while listening? :P One would need to break down your collection in terms of genre, whether your LPs are vintage (pre-CD) or not, etc before making any sort of educated guess.

But if you listen to digital recordings of LPs and find those similarly lifeless, it's probably a human factor, because generally, it's extremely implausible that the digital recording/playback process would have that much of an effect on the sound. Not to denigrate the "human factor" either - this same sort of thing happens to me too, and my solution is to just stop listening to music for a while until I'm more receptive to music in general. Higher-fi gear just doesn't affect that sort of thing IMNSHO.

I do find that as a simple matter of production, and not mastering, modern rock albums just tend to be more abrasive than albums in the past. Depending on one's mood and listening environment, I think that can have a huge impact on the perception of "lifelessness". That has everything to do with the art rather than the science, and it can't really be generalized beyond the most nonspecific platitudes.... Nowadays I think Rage Against the Machine albums are really just kinda limp due to the aggressive production/mastering. Whereas, you look at a Dresden Dolls album, or even Gorillaz, and you see an extremely colorful and nuanced use of dynamics, even though they have rather aggressive masterings.

You should take a really close look at the modern classical album world - particularly from the minor labels - to get a good glimpse of what CDs are truly capable of. Even Naxos tends to put out ridiculously good sounding records. (The majors are good too, but you have to be careful - DG has clipped a few of their releases, and the cheap back catalog stuff remastered from tape is no way to judge Red Book.)
post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
well, we both haven't compared many releases anyway...that magnetic hard rock thingie is clipped to death on CD and LP, and not in that video game?
Right - but for very specific reasons - the Rock Band release effectively mixes all the instrument tracks in real time, so the whole concept of hypercompressing the music doesn't make any sense in that context.

Quote:
that Lee Fields album is hard clipped on the CD, but not on the LP...and not in the previous compilations either.

this dub album is clipped in the Island edition, but not in the Hip'o'Select: Super Ape

there's no hard rule indeed...we need more samples
Indeed, and thanks for mentioning these examples. How specifically have the LPs been evaluated for clipping?

FWIW, I made this HA wiki entry a while ago documenting all the comparisons I did, or was aware of. And I've blogged about similar matters.

Quote:
but I don't listen to comtemporary music anyway...and I can't be hassled to buy vinyls in 2010.

it's like video games piracy, those who pay the full price always get jacked in the end...they want it loud to appeal to the ipod community, fine!
Yeah... to be fair, very very few vinyl houses really advertise the vinyl on these sorts of sonic merits - it's the fans/audiophiles who advocate this.

And I think the people who listen to music in the car (or from boom boxes) can be blamed a bit more than iPod listeners. It's not portable listening that's the issue, it's a lack of dynamic range in the listening environment.
post #37 of 47
here's Jeff Dynamite(Lee Fields' manager) answer to my whining:
Quote:
> From: info<<<<AT>>>>truthandsoulrecords.com
> Subject: Re: Lee Fields - My World = why so loud?!
> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 00:26:01 -0400
> To: leeperry
>
> Hey,
> Sorry your not enjoying the mastering of the cd, and we do appreciate you purchasing the album, but unfortunately that is the only version we have at the moment.
> Have you listened to the vinyl version? It was mastered differently.
> Jeff
and the funny thing is that if you buy the vinyl, you get a voucher for free mp3's

you can listen to the full album in mp3 here: My World - Lee Fields & The Expressions - Listen for free on Deezer

it's an abomination.
post #38 of 47
I always think it is funny that you take a digital tape and put it on vinyl (aka does not compute).
post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
I would like to listen to a prime example of loud vs non loud.

Does anyone know two identical tracks where one has been seriously louded up?
Hello,
I've got a lot of examples. What would you like to hear ? An overcompressed track ? With more bass because of the boom-boom hype ? Less bass because the compression killed them ? A properly remastered one, with just some soft limiting and tonal balance adjustement ? A terrible analog tape restoration, while the original CD sounded good ? A song that doesn't suffer from overcompression ?...
post #40 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio2001 View Post
Hello,
I've got a lot of examples. What would you like to hear ? An overcompressed track ? With more bass because of the boom-boom hype ? Less bass because the compression killed them ? A properly remastered one, with just some soft limiting and tonal balance adjustement ? A terrible analog tape restoration, while the original CD sounded good ? A song that doesn't suffer from overcompression ?...
Well if you have an original track and an identical one that has been severely compressed it would be good, preferably something well known in the mainstream.

With all those examples you could start a loudness hall of shame. The guys in the studio know who they are, perhaps it would make them think twice before they start pumping up the loudness dial in future!
post #41 of 47
humm, it's not the studio guys fault AT ALL
post #42 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
humm, it's not the studio guys fault AT ALL
Of course it's not!
post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
Well if you have an original track and an identical one that has been severely compressed it would be good,
Ok, I'm looking at it tonight CET.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
With all those examples you could start a loudness hall of shame.
The problem is that many audiophiles prefer the compressed versions.
post #44 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post
Of course it's not!
well, they still pursue old war criminals...when they were just following orders, so maybe it's the studio guys fault after all

but again and again, the market forces the record companies to compress their music to death...it's not a wise *ss mastering engineer that decides to kill the music on his own.
post #45 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio2001 View Post
Ok, I'm looking at it tonight CET.
Looking forward to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
well, they still pursue old war criminals...when they were just following orders, so maybe it's the studio guys fault after all

but again and again, the market forces the record companies to compress their music to death...it's not a wise *ss mastering engineer that decides to kill the music on his own.
The buck has to stop somewhere.

Someone has to be the fall guy.
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