High End Headphone Myth - Page 3

There's never a shortage of poor, contrived analogies on an audio forum

And they're using the exact same metric that you are - personal experience. Exaggeration? In some cases, obviously. And yes, there is a problem with some people being far too quick to suggest newcomers to the hobby spend way too much money.

But that doesn't mean there isn't some truth behind underneath such claims. I can certainly vouch that my own HD650's sound quite anemic when I try to run them out of my MP3 player, or even straight from my computer's sound card. It's more than just volume - I lose out in areas such as frequency extension and detail as well. It's not that it sounds BAD, I'm just in a position to know that there's more to be heard when I use the rest of the my equipment.

As for your graph - most certainly. A combination of supply and demand, plus the shrinking economies of scale will always work to create that diminishing returns curve, whether it's for audio, automobiles, fashion, or even something as basic as food and drink.

You guys are making this WAY to complicated

Sennheiser put a 1/8" jack on the 580/600 for a reason, just like they put a 1/4" jack on the 650 for a reason. As a pretty reliable "rule of thumb" the headphones with a 1/8" jack can be driven adequately, if not optimally, with an portable unamped source, in Sennheiser's viewpoint. Same with the SR60/80, one has a 1/8" jack, and one has a 1/4" jack, this is for a reason.

The headphopnes with a 1/4" jack will benefit the most from decent amplification, and their sound will suffer the most without it.

Not a perfect solution, but there's no math, and it works out most of the time

i with you on this one, im driving my rs1is with my notebook and i think the sound is really good. I mean im not saying with an amp, the rs1is will sound worse its just that the sound provided via my notebook satisfies. However, I do look forward to using my RS1is on my amp which is across the world right now, im abroad so.. yep. However I do not like listening to my headphones via mp3 player (rs1is, d2000, 325is).

Don't let a pertinent comment such as that stop other people from recomplicating the whole thing.

When I got my DT250 (admittedly, not as swish as the phones discussed here) I used them on my Mac. They also sounded very nice on an iPod, with a reducer adaptor. When I got a decent source and gave them a bit of power, I heard what they were capable of. Which was more than the poorer sources and lack of power were capable giving them. They just sounded nice, but sort of lifeless and uninvolving before feeding them well.

If I'd never bothered to get better back up gear, I'd be blissfully unaware, and happy with their sound. That doesn't make the idea of driving headphones properly, a myth.

I'm going to give my HD800's a go with the iPod tonight, you guys are on to something big. lol.

I have listened to my AKGs in many different ways. I've tried them straight through an iPod, directly out of my computer, and with a variety of amps. I have done this with several different headphones. What I will say is if you want to get the greatest performance from a full sized headphone and have them sound their best then a good headphone amp is needed. If you're happy with them sounding just mediocre compared to what they could be, then that's your choice. I choose to properly amp my headphones. Do some headphones benefit differently than others? Of course. The Senns and AKGs I've heard need better amplification than, say, the Denon 1001 I have to sound best. I have found my Grados to be a bit more forgiving of amps than the Senn. But the Grados are much better when amped. I'd much rather listen to my RE0 IEM right out of my iPod than the AKG I like better.

Since it's my ears, my opinion and my money, that's what matters to me. It's obvious that everyone have a different views. When someone posts a question about headphones needing an amp or not needing an amp, it's good to have different opinions. Maybe that person will learn more that way than if there was just one answer for every question. I know I learn from opposing views.

Peace,

Carl, good points you make here. But what what really seems to be the issue was your expectation of what you were to hear with an amp added to the chain not living up to the drastic improvement you got from your headphone upgrade. I am also a fan of the HD 580/600 and have heard it through a variety of source/amp combinations of various quality ranging from crappy to fairly decent to over the top. I find the sound straight out of the itouch is pleasing enough for certain genre of music. That said, I know that amping makes a difference for me and I dont have a very expensive amp either.

I attended my first meet recently and left with some great insight into my personal audio quest.
1) The HD800 and Stax O2 with premium amping are miles ahead of my "mid-fi" rig. (DUH! but I had to hear it for myself I guess.)
2) My sub $1000 rig can keep up with some of the $1500+ rigs I heard that day.

I urge you to go to a meet and bring your HD580s to see what other amps can do. It seems like your conclusions are based off of your experience with one amp/dac. Do not make the mistake of downplaying synergy of equipment.....Or just plug into your ipod and be happy with it...Double middle fingers in the air.

I recently borrowed a friend's HD600 to audition. Great set of cans, I must say. I didn't try them with an iPod, but I _did_ have a listen out of my Sansa Fuze. I don't know if it is the Sansa, but in order to get ordinary listening levels (which for me is not very loud - I can still hear the hum of my computer fans with these open-back headphones) the volume was 80% of the maximum. The Fuze does a pretty good job of keeping the sound together at high volumes so it didn't sound _bad_. But if I wanted to listen to some harpsichord and violin duets (one of my new favorite genres), it would be completely useless. If I was more of a volume guy, it might not be satisfying even on modern rock. It is my understanding that this is also bad for battery life as well. Again, I don't know how the HD600 pairs with an iPod, I just know that the Fuze was a no-no. The Fuze, btw, pairs beautifully with the UE Triple-fi. Mmmmmmmm. Yummy.

I bought my desktop amp on ebay. It was shipped from Hong Kong - total price for me was just over $50. The HD600s sound gorgeous when powered by this bargain amp. Dynamics were crisp, frequency was pretty flat, top end had lots of sparkle but no harshness. Plenty of juice to spare, as well. I'm not saying this combo is perfect, or that my bargain amp is a giant-killer or anything. Just that the HD600 seemed more at home with an amp than without. With some portable players like my Fuze, depending on genre, the HD600 might be unusable without an amp.

But given how inexpensive a basic amp is, I see no reason to avoid using one for headphones like these. If someone is opposed to using an amp, there are other headphones out there that will sound great straight out of a portable player.

What seems to have happened is, with much advice given by more experienced people, is that less experienced people latch onto it, distort it, and start parroting it all over the forums, so things get silly.

Some of the old-timers have tried and owned such a massive plethora of insanely expensive and high-performing gear that anything lower down the scale sounded poor to them, so they, back when they were top-of-the-line models and more expensive, suggested better gear to go with the HD-6X0 models as they'd heard the potential that could be had for them. Now low-end gear has improved considerably, from iPods and cheap amps and DACs upwards, so things aren't as bad as they were, but what has changed is that this advice about amping has become distorted into a supposed "truth" that isn't true at all.

A practical example though: When I owned HD-600s and 650s, I plugged them into a few amps, a Corda Move, Zero DAC, Lavry DA-10, Compass, C2C and Phoenix, as well as my iPod and listened to music. The result in all cases wasn't bad as such, that is, un-listenable, but at least on one track I noticed something interesting. On Jeff Buckley's The Way That Young Lovers Do, a live performance, with better amping (C2C or better), it sounded like I was listening from the middle of the audience, with people all around me, but with the Compass and below, it was as if I was standing at the back of the audience. The other thing that would happen is on very fast music, that is where the sound is changing very rapidly, during fast passages, the music was becoming blurred to some degree, as the amp (or DAC) obviously couldn't keep up with the rapid changes. Upgrading fixed this. So now when people ask about amping with these headphones, I recommend something at the level of the C2C or better, not that they'll sound bad out of lesser amps and with poorer sources, but just to state where I found their potential came out at a minimum for me with my best music.

Expensive and performance are not uniquely mated. I think a lot of high end gear tends to have its own sound more than a lot of cheap gear for the express reason that its price can pack in more colour which is always more expensive.

I agree somewhat with the OP: volume matched, neutral amps (no matter what size and price) should sound the same as a neutral source, even if it is an iPod. I've performed this experiment many times and with a variety of people, audiophiles and non-audiophiles.

I've never had it weaken the OP's argument, especially in blind tests. In sighted tests, however, it is always different - always.

Especially rather high Ω headphones - performance should be very similar as long as the amp is outputting below a certain threshold: like 60Ω, preferably lower. The 300Ω coils perform differently at different frequencies and will go well below 300Ω, so an amp needs to be able to manage lowΩ. If it doesn't manage those swings, there will be trouble.

But I've never, ever heard two neutral amps at the same volume sound different. Matched differently, then yes.

That said, nice amp makes me feel good and tends to be another nice bit to lay my stuff on and show off. Add tubes and distortion, and you have a different sound sig, but it has very little to do with actual performance differences, just with sawing off certain resolutions, adding buzz, warmth; but you don't need an expensive, high powered amp unless you just want to listen at high volumes.

Owning one, however, is pure bliss.