Review: CharterOak Acoustics SP-1 (GMP 450 Pro) - Page 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep Funk 

I have tried many headphones but the DF is the most complete in presentation of the recording. Only two headphones really were better to my ears but then both had distinctive extremes. 

 

That brings me to something else. Some headphones are like chameleons and as such it is hard to pin point their characteristics of how they present the recording/track/piece etcetera and I have a few of those. It is so easy to underestimate such headphones that it happens very often, also on Head-Fi. Studio-oriented headphones along reference headphones sometimes have this 'chameleon characteristic'. 

 

I hope the German Maestro will be easier to work with.

Deep Funk, when you say that the K240 DF gives the relatively most complete presentation of recordings do you take spacial resolution into account? I mean the ability to give realistic spacial cues: soundstage, imaging, room reverberation and space,... How do you find that the DF performs on these aspects?

Very interesting what you say about chameleon characteristic and bass preference. My preference not only for bass but to all the sound spectrum is TRANSPARENCY and therefore ACCURACY.

I think that if an headphone is relatively transparent, it's sound character will change accordingly to the rig it is connected to and even, but to a lesser extent, the recording that is being played... but the headphone must be driven efficiently by the amplifier to really assess this fact. There can be no shortage of power to the headphone. I don't think that testing an headphone for transparency with improper amplification is correct.

Do you guys think that the K240 DF has such kind of transparency?

The German Maestros do show this kind of transparency:

Here, for example, the GMP 450 Pro is reviewed and compared to the Koss ESP-950 Electrostatic Stereophone and to the Beyerdynamic DT880. The reviewer reports the synergy between the GMP and several sources and amps. Curiously the MB Quart QP 450 Pro and the GMP 450 Pro seem to be particularly picky with...cord extensions.

Deep Funk, I have not heard any GMPs yet, I still didn't order anything.

What I have heard, in non optimal conditions, was the MB Quarts QP 450 Pro and QP 400, which are the predecessors of GMP 450 Pro and GMP 400 respectively...

One of my main questions is if the GMPs sound exactly the same as the MB Quarts or not.

Here are a couple of songs, from the album EP7 by Autechre, that I would like you guys to use to assess the K240 DF performance on bass extension and articulation, speed, transients, detail retreival, among other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9I4eag8cqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWGUnrIiOoI

This is probably not the kind of music that the majority of people is used to apprecciate... but I do.

The sound quality is definitely not the best, but I think it's enough for this purpose.

So if you can, please compare the DF performance with other headphones you have.

There are links to other songs by Autechre, that you guys could use.

Take your time!

By the way I highly recomend the use of Autechre music to assess headphones performances.

STOKITW!!   WHERE ARE YOU?!!

I want you to do the same for the GMP 450 Pro!

Thanks guys!

The sense of space with the DF is very good. Soundstage is also very good. Room reverberation and actual space are there too. Echo and voice effects are easily captured. If the DAC is up to it you will hear so much you will doubt you are listening to a recording you already know. 

I am sorry, I have no suitable amplifier or Amp/DAC to use with the computer that can power the DF. 

Transparency and accuracy are definitely present, just get the set up right. Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" in my present set up was very pleasing. Interesting test tracks... EP 7 by Autechre...  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep Funk 

The sense of space with the DF is very good. Soundstage is also very good. Room reverberation and actual space are there too. Echo and voice effects are easily captured. If the DAC is up to it you will hear so much you will doubt you are listening to a recording you already know. 

 

I am sorry, I have no suitable amplifier or Amp/DAC to use with the computer that can power the DF. 

 

Transparency and accuracy are definitely present, just get the set up right. Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" in my present set up was very pleasing. Interesting test tracks... EP 7 by Autechre...  

That's great to hear, about the spacial resolution!

Thanks Deep Funk!

I do appreciate Autechre music and sonic explorations very much, but that's only the tip of the iceberg of what is in my music collection!

I think that Autechre music is the kind of music that really deserves a high end system to be enjoyed!

Deep Funk, on your headphone notes you seamed to prefer the JVC HA-DX3 to the K240 DF!

Why did you let it go?

I just made a question on the Yulong D100 thread:

I asked project86 (who has reviewed the Yulong D100 and the Matrix M-Stage), if the Yulong is capable of driving the K240 DF correctly.

In his review of the Yulong D100 he said that the Headphone amplifier of the D100 has a very similar performance to the M-Stage, and it's Dac rivals the ones of Grace M902 and Benchmark DAC1!

Looking forward to what he has to say!

The JVC HA-DX3 was even more musical and precise, my experience. It would have ended the headphone search. 

Fellow headfiers!

After some good feedback from another good headfier, I'm set on the GMP 450 Pro for now.

The K240 DF can wait...

I appreciate all the good input from all of you, thank you!

Good for you!

Sorry about being silent, kind of busy recently.

Also I don't know what else to say about this nice set of headphone.

I don't like to common phones on high, mid, bass.

To me the key is the sound being believable, and then I'll think about where I'm in the concert hall.
 

I don't have K240DF, but I have K271.

I don't think K271 is up to the same league as GMP450 pro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkl10 

Fellow headfiers!

After some good feedback from another good headfier, I'm set on the GMP 450 Pro for now.

The K240 DF can wait...

 

I appreciate all the good input from all of you, thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokitw 

I don't think K271 is up to the same league as GMP450 pro.

 

And why is that stokitw?

I just realised that you also own the K271 MKII, so I am very interested on what you think of those two headphones... soundwise...

What is it that the GMP 450 Pro does clearly better than the K271? Is there something that you prefer on the AKG over the GMP? Or are the two on completely different levels and thus a comparison is pointless?

Probably I'm just being an annoying guy with so many questions, so this will be my last info request! I Promise. :)

Hopefully there will be two headfiers owning the GMP 450 Pro, and you won't be alone anymore stokitw! ;)

By the way I want to apologize for any inconvenience that my previous post might had caused to lejaz or others. And I know that K271 MKII and K240 DF are not the same thing.

Thanks!

I just obtained what appears to be the last of the SP1s available for purchase on the internet at least (Really low serial number... 42?  I wonder how many of these they made)

Regardless, if anyone has any questions about these or the GMP 450 PRO I would be happy to talk to them.

I love these cans - I am familiar with the MB Quart sound - as I run a lot of their equipment in my car audio set up (old, handmade MB) and these have a very familiar sound sig.

Very nimble, analytical and surprisingly flat IMO.  So many things I could say about this can!

R-Audiohead and I have exchanged some listening sessions and I fully agree. These are in the same tier as my HD650 in my opinion. Contrasted with the 650, the Charteroaks are a bit flatter: not quite as rich as the 650 or active--instead, they are subtle, and "nimble" like R said. These reproduce clear timbres really nicely, such as the mid range of a piano, a tenor voice, or the rack-mounted toms.

The 650s outdo the SP1s in detail, separation, and imaging, which is probably due to the fact that they're open instead of closed.

Really nice sound all the way around the spectrum. I don't know why head-fi never talks about these cans. But then again, I feel like people say that about cans all the time! 

I want to say that I have just ordered a GMP 450 Pro and some adittional earpads!

Within 2 weeks it should be at home with me.

Seems that the GMP 450 Pro legion is growing faster than I thought it would...

R-Audiohead, that's an intriguing combination of headphones you got there. Both the HD448 and SP-1 are closed headphones, said to be neutral, detailed and airy.

How would you compare them soundwise? Which one is flatter to your ears?

Do you find the SP-1 to sound very much like an open headphone? Can't you find any sign of dynamic range compression, reverberation, echo, boxiness, whatever, at least compared to the HD650? And how's isolation?

Man, I feel silly for asking always the same questions, lol.

Are you planning to write a review of the Charteroak just like you did for the Sennheiser HD448?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkl10 

I want to say that I have just ordered a GMP 450 Pro and some adittional earpads!

 

Within 2 weeks it should be at home with me.

Seems that the GMP 450 Pro legion is growing faster than I thought it would...

 

R-Audiohead, that's an intriguing combination of headphones you got there. Both the HD448 and SP-1 are closed headphones, said to be neutral, detailed and airy.

How would you compare them soundwise? Which one is flatter to your ears?

 

Do you find the SP-1 to sound very much like an open headphone? Can't you find any sign of dynamic range compression, reverberation, echo, boxiness, whatever, at least compared to the HD650? And how's isolation?

 

Man, I feel silly for asking always the same questions, lol.

Are you planning to write a review of the Charteroak just like you did for the Sennheiser HD448?

If I were you, I would not feel silly asking these questions at all!  That is the point of these forums, yes?

You are correct about my combo of headphones - I really enjoy a non-colored, neutral, and essentially natural sound (of course the correlation of neutral and natural is a personal opinion and debatable). The reference listening experience of my life was enjoying the Sydney Orchestra in the Sydney Opera House, and let me tell you... nothing will beat a sound like that.  No color - just straight, natural reproduction of instrumental music.  While instrumental music is not my primary category, my general appreciation for sound won me over.

Colored sound can be fun, don't get me wrong... but at the end of the day we all know it can become fatiguing, and the most enjoyable listening experiences are those that keep you up late at night because you can't stop listening.

I have been pondering selling/upgrading the Senn HD448 and replacing it with something of a different taste, just to have the variety (eyes on the Ultrasone PRO750) - but every time I think this I end up trying out the 448s to see what I think, and I always forget how nice they are for portable use.  It is so much headphone for $100. I can understand why people find it boring, but I ultimately find a sound signature as such to be enveloping.

To answer your questions----

Which is Flatter?: Originally it was tough to decide which of these headphones sounded flatter, but in the end I had to hand it to the CharterOaks.  While the tonal response of the HD448 is fine in the lows, they are rather empty, and I am not talking about the lack of the artificial bass "hump" (although that is missing, too) - I mean the lows do not sustain like they should.  Also, the Senn HD448 favors the mids more than the rest of the spectrum enough to say they aren't completely "flat".  I am skeptical that this is more of a result of recessed lows than accentuated mids.  I will also say that it'd be near impossible to make the HD448 harsh even in the worst of recordings.  Senn likes to have a little dip in the treble because they feel it improves the sound for that reason, I've heard.  It certainly works for the 448s.

The CharterOaks do the lows really well, IMO.  It never overpowers the rest of the spectrum, never becomes fatiguing, never sounds artificial... it compliments the music rather than supplements it - the way bass should sound (Again, personal opinion).  The impact, tone, sustain, and timbre of the bass is all there.  I know these headphones have been accused of being bass-light, and while I can understand WHY someone could think that, I do not necessarily agree with it (and this is coming from an individual experienced in car audio (12 inch subs, etc.)).  This fullness in the lows emphasize the extension the Senn HD448 lack, and thus the mids are not stranded...resulting in an overall flatter perceived response.

Do these sound open?:  No, but they sound a heck of a lot more open than other closed back models I have heard.  You'll have to take into account that most of my previous experience comes with external sound setups, so I always think the soundstage of even super open headphones are restricting.  I would describe the soundstage as more tall than wide - it layers the music a bit - which depending on your tastes can add something to the sound.  The lows sound as if they are resonating from a lower position than the highs, rather than the lows surrounding the rest of the spectrum as I have heard in other audio setups (even external).  The mids do a good job of tying the rest of the spectrum together, even if subtly.  If any part of the spectrum is accentuated, it is the mids (I still think they're flat).  These image fine, and exceptionally so for a closed can, but the soundstage is not at all wide.  I would be curious to hear the QP400 to compare.

Can I hear dynamic range etc?: Yes, that comes more from the quality of the file - whether or not normalization was used, etc - than the headphone GENERALLY.  In fact, being a flat headphone makes it easier to experience the dynamic range the artist intended.  I think this is the biggest advantage an acoustically flat audio device brings to the table.  There is no bias in the headphone to color over any particular note or part of the spectrum that artist him/herself intended to "color" in the recording.  THAT is why I prefer flat sonic responses... more well rounded than strong in a particular category, making these solid for just about every type of music, gaming, TV, etc.  This headphone was definitely targeted for professional use, and the dynamic range perception really is the highlight.  If the artist wants a track to be lively or laid back, you'll get just that.

Unfortunately, when Senndroid and I exchanged a listening session, he had his Senn 595s and not his 650s.  I plan on writing a very detailed review of these headphones for the sake of head-fi (and the headphone, because I really feel they don't get the attention they deserve - probably due to the lack of entry level gear offered by MB Quart (old)/German Maestro (same manufacturers from old MB).  In order to write the most accurate review however, I would like to put them up against Senndroid's HD 650 given that almost the entire community is familiar with that headphone.  It could be a month or so before I get the opportunity.

To answer the isolation question... unfortunately the price of having an okay soundstage for a closed headphone is the isolation.  They isolate some, certainly enough to be considered "closed", but my HD 448 isolate leagues better.  This being said, I think it mainly has to do with the lack of clamping force these headphones have.  Honestly, these headphones are surprisingly feathers... and apply about the same pressure on the head as pillows.  The dual headband is high quality plastic and cloth, with the cloth portion resting on your head.  I log hours and hours on headphones as a college student, 4+ hour listening sessions frequently, and not once have I thought these weren't comfy.  Stellar isolation is the cost of comfort and soundstage in this case.

I will be curious to hear your impressions upon receiving your GMP 450 PROs

Also, did you get different pads, or just a replacement set?  This may alter the sound.

There are some very good sounding entry level headphones by German Maestro: the GMP 250 and the GMP 8.300 D.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by R-Audiohead 

If I were you, I would not feel silly asking these questions at all!  That is the point of these forums, yes?

 

You are correct about my combo of headphones - I really enjoy a non-colored, neutral, and essentially natural sound (of course the correlation of neutral and natural is a personal opinion and debatable). The reference listening experience of my life was enjoying the Sydney Orchestra in the Sydney Opera House, and let me tell you... nothing will beat a sound like that.  No color - just straight, natural reproduction of instrumental music.  While instrumental music is not my primary category, my general appreciation for sound won me over.

 

Colored sound can be fun, don't get me wrong... but at the end of the day we all know it can become fatiguing, and the most enjoyable listening experiences are those that keep you up late at night because you can't stop listening.

 

I have been pondering selling/upgrading the Senn HD448 and replacing it with something of a different taste, just to have the variety (eyes on the Ultrasone PRO750) - but every time I think this I end up trying out the 448s to see what I think, and I always forget how nice they are for portable use.  It is so much headphone for $100. I can understand why people find it boring, but I ultimately find a sound signature as such to be enveloping.

 

To answer your questions----

 

Which is Flatter?: Originally it was tough to decide which of these headphones sounded flatter, but in the end I had to hand it to the CharterOaks.  While the tonal response of the HD448 is fine in the lows, they are rather empty, and I am not talking about the lack of the artificial bass "hump" (although that is missing, too) - I mean the lows do not sustain like they should.  Also, the Senn HD448 favors the mids more than the rest of the spectrum enough to say they aren't completely "flat".  I am skeptical that this is more of a result of recessed lows than accentuated mids.  I will also say that it'd be near impossible to make the HD448 harsh even in the worst of recordings.  Senn likes to have a little dip in the treble because they feel it improves the sound for that reason, I've heard.  It certainly works for the 448s.

The CharterOaks do the lows really well, IMO.  It never overpowers the rest of the spectrum, never becomes fatiguing, never sounds artificial... it compliments the music rather than supplements it - the way bass should sound (Again, personal opinion).  The impact, tone, sustain, and timbre of the bass is all there.  I know these headphones have been accused of being bass-light, and while I can understand WHY someone could think that, I do not necessarily agree with it (and this is coming from an individual experienced in car audio (12 inch subs, etc.)).  This fullness in the lows emphasize the extension the Senn HD448 lack, and thus the mids are not stranded...resulting in an overall flatter perceived response.

 

Do these sound open?:  No, but they sound a heck of a lot more open than other closed back models I have heard.  You'll have to take into account that most of my previous experience comes with external sound setups, so I always think the soundstage of even super open headphones are restricting.  I would describe the soundstage as more tall than wide - it layers the music a bit - which depending on your tastes can add something to the sound.  The lows sound as if they are resonating from a lower position than the highs, rather than the lows surrounding the rest of the spectrum as I have heard in other audio setups (even external).  The mids do a good job of tying the rest of the spectrum together, even if subtly.  If any part of the spectrum is accentuated, it is the mids (I still think they're flat).  These image fine, and exceptionally so for a closed can, but the soundstage is not at all wide.  I would be curious to hear the QP400 to compare.

 

Can I hear dynamic range etc?: Yes, that comes more from the quality of the file - whether or not normalization was used, etc - than the headphone GENERALLY.  In fact, being a flat headphone makes it easier to experience the dynamic range the artist intended.  I think this is the biggest advantage an acoustically flat audio device brings to the table.  There is no bias in the headphone to color over any particular note or part of the spectrum that artist him/herself intended to "color" in the recording.  THAT is why I prefer flat sonic responses... more well rounded than strong in a particular category, making these solid for just about every type of music, gaming, TV, etc.  This headphone was definitely targeted for professional use, and the dynamic range perception really is the highlight.  If the artist wants a track to be lively or laid back, you'll get just that.

Unfortunately, when Senndroid and I exchanged a listening session, he had his Senn 595s and not his 650s.  I plan on writing a very detailed review of these headphones for the sake of head-fi (and the headphone, because I really feel they don't get the attention they deserve - probably due to the lack of entry level gear offered by MB Quart (old)/German Maestro (same manufacturers from old MB).  In order to write the most accurate review however, I would like to put them up against Senndroid's HD 650 given that almost the entire community is familiar with that headphone.  It could be a month or so before I get the opportunity.

To answer the isolation question... unfortunately the price of having an okay soundstage for a closed headphone is the isolation.  They isolate some, certainly enough to be considered "closed", but my HD 448 isolate leagues better.  This being said, I think it mainly has to do with the lack of clamping force these headphones have.  Honestly, these headphones are surprisingly feathers... and apply about the same pressure on the head as pillows.  The dual headband is high quality plastic and cloth, with the cloth portion resting on your head.  I log hours and hours on headphones as a college student, 4+ hour listening sessions frequently, and not once have I thought these weren't comfy.  Stellar isolation is the cost of comfort and soundstage in this case.

 

I will be curious to hear your impressions upon receiving your GMP 450 PROs

 

Also, did you get different pads, or just a replacement set?  This may alter the sound.

I surely will write my impressions on the GMP 450 Pro, but can't promess the most valuable opinion because I have no other full sized headphone to compare them with.

I will try to compare it to the MB Quarts QP 450 and 400 (which I auditioned) from my memory and to the Head Direct RE0 IEM (on the aspects on which IEMs and full sized headphones can actually be compared).

Since I want a double duty headphone (music enjoyment and amateur mixing/tracking/monitoring) and being aware of how the different earpads change the sound of the GMP line of headphones, I decided to order the headphone plus 2 different sets of earpads: 41-6049 and 41-6050.

And for further modding/tunning I also ordered 2 pairs of dust protector: 18-6052.

This way I will, hopefully, be able to tune the sound the way I want to... for example:

Want to enjoy music? keep the stock earpads.

Want to do some tracking or mixing? Put the 41-6050 earpads.

The sound is to bright or dark? The bass is not right? The mids are to recessed? The highs are to sharp? Put 2 dust protectors in each earcup with a layer of felt or cotton in between.

It's like having several headphones in one, but at the base a driver able to deliver a fully capable and balanced within it's enclosure/earcups.

The GMP 450 Pro is a balanced, neutral and transparent headphone in the first place and it seems to be very easy to tune it's sound from there just by playing with earpads and dust protectors - felt, cotton or whatever combinations. This is a rare combination of traits as far as I know and it attracts me.

I wonder how an angled set of earpads would change the sound of this headphone...

R-Audiohead are your SP-1's earpads stitched or just tied with elastic bands to the plastic casing? Are you able to rotate the earpads in a way that the oval opening become horizontal instead of vertical? Could you tell me if you can hear any change on the sound after doing that?

And is your Fiio E7 capable of driving the SP-1 to reasonable volume? How much of an improvement does your E9 give over the E7?

Don't know if you have heard the Charteroak through diferent gear but i'll ask anyway... how much transparent do you find the Sp-1 to be?

Thanks!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiemen 

There are some very good sounding entry level headphones by German Maestro: the GMP 250 and the GMP 8.300 D.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by R-Audiohead 

 

I plan on writing a very detailed review of these headphones for the sake of head-fi (and the headphone, because I really feel they don't get the attention they deserve - probably due to the lack of entry level gear offered by MB Quart (old)/German Maestro (same manufacturers from old MB). 

I believe that the reason why German Maestro/MB Quart headphones don't get more attention at head-fi is simply because these headphones are not marketed or advertised on the US.

German Maestro is a relatively small company despite having a long history... their headphones are handmade...

Oh! Just one more thing before I go to bed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by R-Audiohead 

  The lows sound as if they are resonating from a lower position than the highs, rather than the lows surrounding the rest of the spectrum as I have heard in other audio setups (even external).  The mids do a good job of tying the rest of the spectrum together, even if subtly.  If any part of the spectrum is accentuated, it is the mids (I still think they're flat).  These image fine, and exceptionally so for a closed can, but the soundstage is not at all wide.  I would be curious to hear the QP400 to compare.

 

R-Audiohead, could you explain in more detail the highlighted parts of this quote? Since your ears "know" the sound of loudspeaker setups your opinion on this is very interesting to know.
 

Thanks! See you guys tomorrow!

The flat response of these headphones should be absolutely ideal for both mixing and tuning.  My ear pads have rubber lip which slips over the driver casing.  Turning the pads, although I have not tried it, would seem to generate a comfort issue.  I am pretty sure the pad would squish the top/bottom of my ear.  I understand the effort to maybe generate a wide (instead of tall) soundstage, but this will not work, I feel. 

To answer your question about angled drivers....given the cardamatic suspension in the headphone (suspended from the exterior on the headphone) the angled pad may provide some forward/backward imaging to the headphone, since the entire cup is free to move and sit at an angle because of the design.  I do not know what kind of stress this may generate on the elastic which suspends them...

I haven't spent enough time driving the SP-1 out of the e7, but I can tell you initial impression already suggest they are being underdriven.  For some reason I thought I remember reading that the e7 does about 18mW into 300 ohms.  The e9 laughs at 300 ohms... (80mW into 600 ohm, I think?)  Nothing sounds as full.  Whether that is the e9 doing an exceptional job or the e7 not cutting it, I do not know.  I can spend more time with this if you are thinking about driving your GMP 450s PROs from a device as such.

I cannot answer the transparency question from direct experience.  I have had them only a few months now and have them glued to the e9 (which does a good job not coloring the sound, I am quite impressed with FiiO offering this for less than 200 dollars).  I can guess that they are transparent given that they are aimed at professional use - but this is just a guess.  I plan on attending a head-fi meet around march, I will take the opportunity to try different amps, tubes included and probably write my impressions.  I recommend the e7/e9 combo at this point.

To answer your questions regarding the bold...

I want to clarify that the bass sounding as though it flows beneath the rest of the spectrum to be a good thing.  It adds that layered effect, as I was mentioning.  While I say the imaging in these headphones is fine, I also think the imaging within the category of "closed headphone" is exceptional.  Open headphones generally will do a better job as well all know.  This is not to be confused with what you will hear in a loudspeaker setup.  Just about every time, even an individual loudspeaker (of decent quality) will image leagues better than a headphone.  Granted, I have not heard a T1 or HD800, but I have a hard time believing a loudspeaker of the same cost won't image MUCH better.  Having separate drivers with crossovers just produces a better separated sound.

The niche of headphones is the easy environmental demands to reach the optimal physical listening experience.  While I think a solid 2.1 stereo will produce better separated (imaged) sound than any headphone given a dollar quantity (except maybe the sub-$500 range - headphones might do a better job), some times the demands to reach the potential are unreasonable to achieve, and well... everyone else within any measurable distance will be affected.  For me, this is the beauty of a headphone.  More on this if you care... haha

Hopefully I answered everything and don't hesitate to ask more.  I think the GMP 450 PRO will be perfect for you, especially if you plan on mixing and tuning them via pads.