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Does Anyone Else Think The Stax 007 Has A Constricted Soundstage?

post #1 of 59
Thread Starter 
I have some hesitation criticizing this phone since it does so much so well and it is one of the best phones ever made, if not the best. However it is not perfect. I was struck by a comment another member made in the Stax thread a few weeks back about not liking the soundstage of these phones compared to some other stats and it "resonated" with some of my own thoughts about these phones.

I myself generally prefer the soundstage of the Sigma/404 and probably even the Sigma pro and Sigma to that of the 007, but that is because I like the openness of sound that the Sigmas have due to the forward location of their drivers, what I call the pre-aural location. But what about the soundstage of other traditional circumaural phones compared to the 007?

The term "soundstage" is somewhat nebulous and open to differing interpretations. I distinguish between "imaging' of stereo sources and "soundstage."

Imaging refers to the ability of set of phones to give the listener precsiely localized positions of instruments and voices from left to right. This is based on interaural timing and amplitude differences between the two ears and is something that the 007 does exceedingly well. The superb imaging was almost the first thing that stuck me when I got my own 007 set some while back. The locations of sound sources were precisely localized and very stable over time, better than anything I had ever heard or for that matter have heard since.

So what is soundstage and what is the problem with the 007? I use the term soundstage to refer to other aspects of the sonic image that make it sound realistic, open, out-of-the head and the like. It generally means a realistic stereo image but you can also talk about the soundstage of a monaural source played through headphones, if it sounds somewhat realistic. (I don't want to push monaural listening too much, generally this is pretty boring through headphones but occasionally I hear a monaural recording which is fairly listenable through phones even though it lacks any real stereo image.)

The problem with the 007 is that like the other commentator, I find it somewhat lacking in openness even compared to some other circumaural stat phones such as the Stax 404. Certainly there have been times when I put them down and replace them with the Sigma/404 even though the 404 phones do not have the same precise imaging and fine detail of the 007.

At this point one has a problem of definition as to exactly what 007 and even what 404 I am discussing. My 007 is the 007A, with the Spritzer spring modification, which flattens the spring inside the cup. The ear pad is swivelled so that the thickest part is below and slightly behind the ear.

My 404 is also modified in that I have removed the foam from the back side of the ear cups, something which I feel gets rid of some midrange honkiness of the 404 as well as expanding the soundstage. At any rate I sat and listened to the 404 and 007A side by side in my 717 amp for about a week and think even the 404 is more open sounding.

I am less familiar with the 007 Mk1 but I did spend some time with it at the last Canjam and didn't think it had any obvious soundstage advantage over the A model.

At any rate, I wondered why I might be hearing what I think I am hearing and a couple of thoughts came to mind.

Firstly, the 007A has a somewhat pronounced lower bass boom which, especially when the system is not warmed up ( I use the 717 amp) tends to make the bass somewhat ill-defined and poorly localized.

Secondly though, as I looked at the phones there is a significant difference in construction which I don't think helps the 007. Whereas the 404 has a fully open back with only a minimal cage behind the driver, the 007 has a solid wall projecting about 3/8 in from the driver and fully around the driver so there is a sort of chamber behind the driver. I other words the 007ndriver is far more enclosed in the rear than in the 404 or other Lambdas.

[IMG][/IMG]

Basically the 007 driver is recessed about 3/8 inch from the back screen and there is a solid "ring" also about 3/8 inch deep circling the back of the driver. It may even create sort of a resonating chamber.

I think this may matter. For example if I place my fingers anywhere near the back of the 404's when they are on my head, I hear a disruption of the soundstage. And of course if I put my hands over the back of the 404 they sound pretty dull. So the manner in which the backside of the earcup is constructed may make a big difference to the sound and the Lambdas may have an advantage in this regard by being more open in the back.

Anyway those are my thoughts. The 007 is a great phone but did Stax miss the opportunity to make it better by making the back more open or by some other design change?
post #2 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by edstrelow View Post
I have some hesitation criticizing this phone since it does so much so well and it is one of the best phones ever made, if not the best. However it is not perfect. I was struck by a comment another member made in the Stax thread a few weeks back about not liking the soundstage of these phones compared to some other stats and it "resonated" with some of my own thoughts about these phones.

I myself generally prefer the soundstage of the Sigma/404 and probably even the Sigma pro and Sigma to that of the 007, but that is because I like the openness of sound that the Sigmas have due to the forward location of their drivers, what I call the pre-aural location. But what about the soundstage of other traditional circumaural phones compared to the 007?

The term "soundstage" is somewhat nebulous and open to differing interpretations. I distinguish between "imaging' of stereo sources and "soundstage."

Imaging refers to the ability of set of phones to give the listener precsiely localized positions of instruments and voices from left to right. This is based on interaural timing and amplitude differences between the two ears and is something that the 007 does exceedingly well. The superb imaging was almost the first thing that stuck me when I got my own 007 set some while back. The locations of sound sources were precisely localized and very stable over time, better than anything I had ever heard or for that matter have heard since.

So what is soundstage and what is the problem with the 007? I use the term soundstage to refer to other aspects of the sonic image that make it sound realistic, open, out-of-the head and the like. It generally means a realistic stereo image but you can also talk about the soundstage of a monaural source played through headphones, if it sounds somewhat realistic. (I don't want to push monaural listening too much, generally this is pretty boring through headphones but occasionally I hear a monaural recording which is fairly listenable through phones even though it lacks any real stereo image.)

The problem with the 007 is that like the other commentator, I find it somewhat lacking in openness even compared to some other circumaural stat phones such as the Stax 404. Certainly there have been times when I put them down and replace them with the Sigma/404 even though the 404 phones do not have the same precise imaging and fine detail of the 007.

At this point one has a problem of definition as to exactly what 007 and even what 404 I am discussing. My 007 is the 007A, with the Spritzer spring modification, which flattens the spring inside the cup. The ear pad is swivelled so that the thickest part is below and slightly behind the ear.

My 404 is also modified in that I have removed the foam from the back side of the ear cups, something which I feel gets rid of some midrange honkiness of the 404 as well as expanding the soundstage. At any rate I sat and listened to the 404 and 007A side by side in my 717 amp for about a week and think even the 404 is more open sounding.

I am less familiar with the 007 Mk1 but I did spend some time with it at the last Canjam and didn't think it had any obvious soundstage advantage over the A model.

At any rate, I wondered why I might be hearing what I think I am hearing and a couple of thoughts came to mind.

Firstly, the 007A has a somewhat pronounced lower bass boom which, especially when the system is not warmed up ( I use the 717 amp) tends to make the bass somewhat ill-defined and poorly localized.

Secondly though, as I looked at the phones there is a significant difference in construction which I don't think helps the 007. Whereas the 404 has a fully open back with only a minimal cage behind the driver, the 007 has a solid wall projecting about 3/8 in from the driver and fully around the driver so there is a sort of chamber behind the driver. I other words the 007ndriver is far more enclosed in the rear than in the 404 or other Lambdas.
....

Basically the 007 driver is recessed about 3/8 inch from the back screen and there is a solid "ring" also about 3/8 inch deep circling the back of the driver. It may even create sort of a resonating chamber.

I think this may matter. For example if I place my fingers anywhere near the back of the 404's when they are on my head, I hear a disruption of the soundstage. And of course if I put my hands over the back of the 404 they sound pretty dull. So the manner in which the backside of the earcup is constructed may make a big difference to the sound and the Lambdas may have an advantage in this regard by being more open in the back.

Anyway those are my thoughts. The 007 is a great phone but did Stax miss the opportunity to make it better by making the back more open or by some other design change?
I agree with every word of the above! I've wanted to write about this in the stax thread but I'm too lazy to state out all my observations.
I also think that the Omegas are great cans but in terms of soundstage I prefer my K701, D5000, HD650 and even K141 Monitor. They all go more effortless, open and out-of-the head.

About bass:
Quote:
Originally Posted by brat View Post
...I've noticed that there are two occasions when my omegas have too much bass: When the amp is not warmed up and when the voltage of the electric mains is lower than normal...
I've fixed the bass "problem" by using a power conditioner (Furman Elite 16 PFEi) and keeping the amp always warmed up (since October 2009 ). The power conditioner also bettered the 3D presentation and the imaging of the O2. I'm not sure that I like the bass recession although its detail and texture became incredible... I think that well powered and warmed up O2mk2 system lacks bass.
post #3 of 59
Basically no, it's just fine to my ears. That said I absolutely loath the expansive mess of phones like the HE90 and to a lesser extent the HD800 which makes it very hard to localize anything in that wall of fog. As for the SR-Sigma/404 then I've never found them to be a drastic improvement over the size of the SR-007 soundstage. The SR-Omega certainly throws a wider soundstage but the imaging suffers as well.

The whole point of the Omega project was to completely reevaluate what Stax had done in the past. They had a lot of great ideas but none of them were truly flawless. With the Sigma you have serious phase issues and the structural integrity of the chassis is sub par. The SR-X monitors are very pure but lack soundstage and dynamic capability. The Lambdas are a good compromise (which is how they were born in the first place) but don't really excel at anything. Now with the Sr-Omega you have the structural integrity of the SR-X, with larger earpads and the largest drivers this side of the Jecklin Floats. Now the really cool part, angled earpads (which they no doubt borrowed from the Lambda design) which allows the drivers to sit above the ears at a fixed point and greatly increase the size of the soundstage.

Now with the SR-007 they took this all a step further except the angle of the earpads. They have thicker but less angled for a more natural soundstage but this is easy enough to change by altering the metal arcs and thus change how the phones interact with the head.

That said largest factor when it comes to the size of the soundstage is the power of the amplifier driving the phones. This isn't just voltage swing but the constant supply of current the amp can give the phones when they need it. The SR-007 was no doubt designed with the SRM-T2 (possibly the prototype version which has even more power) plus what ever beasts Stax have at hand so it would be a bad idea to think they were limited by something like the SRM-T1's.

As for the assumption that the chassis design somehow damages the soundstage capability of the phones, you couldn't be more wrong. Electrostatic panels don't radiate sound in all directions, they beam in an elongated figure 8 pattern which is why the height of the earpads over the drivers is so crucial (plus the damping effect naturally). This means that the area closest to the drivers has little impact on the sound but 10mm or so away from them is a different matter.

For me the soundstage of the SR-007 is just perfect. If the recording calls for a tiny spec then that's what they phones will give you. Now if the recording calls for a wast wall of sound then that's what you get except with the same razor sharp imaging where you can easily pinpoint every instrument.
post #4 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
a wast wall of sound
I take it you're planning to change to a wabbit avatar and join Team Animal Avatar?

--

Please don't use all-caps in the thread title. I feel like you're shouting at me. If that was your intention, well, I'll just put my headphones back on and listen to some music.

I assume you've read Darthnut's famous SR-007 review, where he explains his concept of headstage vs. soundstage and compares the SR-007 with the SR-Omega.

I don't think that headphones really have a soundstage, in the sense of a speaker-based system in which there seems to be a "stage" in front of you where the sound is emanating. This can depend on the recording, of course. Jazz vocals and some other types of so-called "audiophile" recordings usually have an excellent soundstage illusion when played on a speaker system. The recent Head-Fi and HDtracks "Open Your Ears" album also has examples of some these types of recordings.

With a headphone, the sound doesn't seem to come from in front of you, but all around you, from around and inside your head. Sometimes people talk about how Grados put you among the performers, and the HD650 maybe 12 rows back. Well, compared to speakers, I think that almost all headphones basically put you in among the performers, or at least closer and the sense of distance is not as well-defined. In "Open Your Ears" there's a test track where a drummer plays at varying distance from the microphone. Sure, the further he is, the "smaller" the sound seems to be. But it's not the same as a speaker system.

So what's all this got to do with the SR-007 or SR-007mk2? I think that the O2 has excellent soundstaging, in the headphone sense, but it has a very small headstage where the sound images are relatively small. It is also not very airy, or open sounding. The HE90, HE60, Jade, SR-Omega and dynamics such as the HD800 have a greater sense of airyness or openness and have larger soundstages. In this aspect, I think the O2 is more like the closed 4070.

So the O2's sound images are comparatively small and appear on a small "stage" that sounds more inside-the-head. For someone used to a more open and airy type of sound, the O2 may even seem congested, closed-in and lack air. However, as I became more accustomed to the O2's sound over time, I found that I often didn't mind the smallish headstage as much, because of how well it does everything else. Sure the sound images are tiny, but what glorious sound images! Detailed, well-defined attack & decay, each precisely formed and appearing out of a pristine black background. What the O2 does extremely well, arguably the best of all headphones I've heard, is very detailed and precise imaging on its small headstage.

It is like a "small" monitor, such as a Dell U2711 with 2560x1440 resolution, compared to a 42-inch LCD TV with lower resolution. The screen size of the TV is larger and is fine from 15 feet away, but when you walk closer the images or text are not as crisp and at 3 feet away, the computer monitor renders its comparatively tiny text much clearer than the TV can. Of course, they're designed for different viewing distances but I think the analogy works to some extent.

The HD800, for example, has a much more out-of-the-head presentation where there's a greater illusion of the sounds appearing in front of you and away from your head. It does layering very well, where you hear the illusion of the sounds at varying distances from you. But as I said above, I don't think that even the HD800 can compare with a speaker system's type of soundstage.

With binaural recordings, headphones can present a more realistic soundstage. Some products like the Smyth, which I haven't heard, may also improve or change the experience.

When driven by many amps, the O2 may also seem dark-sounding. This, combined with the small headstage, makes it seem even more closed-in and congested. But with a better-matched amp, the O2 opens up more and is not really dark-sounding. The KGSS does a good job, but a BHSE really makes the O2 spread its wings and fly. Hmm, that sounded lame. OK, how about reach out with its trunk and grasp that apple on the high branch?
post #5 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephas View Post
I take it you're planning to change to a wabbit avatar and join Team Animal Avatar?
post #6 of 59
Its interesting that razor sharp imaging vs diffused images is mentioned. One part of Darth's epic review I didn't quite understand was his take on the relation of detail retrieval and preceived distance. He did mention a light hearted comparision between a Sennheiser HD600 and Grado RS1 and concluded that the RS1 sounded closer because it was the more detailed headphone. But the Qualia 010 for instance seems to defy this by having pinpoint imaging but also having a larger soundfield. I'm not sure if this has any correlation with the size of the aperture area, as the O2 and Qualia both have small openings around the ears from the drivers. Where as phones like the HE90, HE60, and HD800 have large openings around the ears. If area around the ears does affect precision vs diffusion, then I suspect that the Qualia obtains its larger soundfield with the angle of the drivers compared to the less aggresive driver angle of the O2.

As far as the SR-007 is concerned, the way sonic images are portrayed is just incredibly realistic and much more mature than most everything out there. If you can get past the initial awe of hearing phones with exagerated soundstages and diffused images, then you can start to appreciate the layers of well defined sonic images and textures that can make it an experience much more than the stereotypical headphone presentation.
post #7 of 59
I also felt the soundstage of the O2 was a bit narrow when i auditioned it off the 727 two weeks ago, especially when coming from Lambdas & HD800. But most of the time i also had that oppressive boomy bass edstrelow talks about (it was worse on the 007T). When the O2 finally sounded fine i found the soundstage just great. It's true that Lambdas seem to have a more open sound with Stax amps. They let music flow outside the headphone. But isn't it a bit artificial? Speakers don't let sound spread outside the room, why would headphones do that?
Then i have the impression this also has to do with musical tastes. A very open soundstage seems impressive with acoustic recordings but less with pop music and such (at least to my ears). I like the way the O2 retains every piece of information, especially coming from the bass. It seems to have some advantages of sealed headphones. Which other open headphones do sound like that?
post #8 of 59
I'm going to go ahead and join in alongside the rest of "Team Headphone Soundstage is Typically Diffuse and Artificial, and Cans which Offer this Often Lack Pinpoint Imaging-Fi." I treasure the O2's for everything they do well - which is quite literally everything, less throwing out an expansive soundstage.

When I listen to headphones, besides the obvious reasons such as keeping the overall noise level down for neighbors, wife, etc., I am doing so because of headphones' ability to - by leaps and bounds - offer a much more detailed presentation than any speaker can (with the possible exception of some good panels, which given my tiny apartment is an impossibility). I can get blurred details from my bookshelves, at the expense of such amazingly specific imaging - I often seek the reverse in headphones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobbaddict View Post
Then i have the impression this also has to do with musical tastes. A very open soundstage seems impressive with acoustic recordings but less with pop music and such (at least to my ears). I like the way the O2 retains every piece of information, especially coming from the bass. It seems to have some advantages of sealed headphones. Which other open headphones do sound like that?
My sentiments exactly!
post #9 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephas
So what's all this got to do with the SR-007 or SR-007mk2? I think that the O2 has excellent soundstaging, in the headphone sense, but it has a very small headstage where the sound images are relatively small. It is also not very airy, or open sounding.
I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobbaddict
But isn't it a bit artificial? Speakers don't let sound spread outside the room, why would headphones do that?
What does this even mean?
post #10 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadneddz View Post
Its interesting that razor sharp imaging vs diffused images is mentioned. One part of Darth's epic review I didn't quite understand was his take on the relation of detail retrieval and preceived distance. He did mention a light hearted comparision between a Sennheiser HD600 and Grado RS1 and concluded that the RS1 sounded closer because it was the more detailed headphone. But the Qualia 010 for instance seems to defy this by having pinpoint imaging but also having a larger soundfield. I'm not sure if this has any correlation with the size of the aperture area, as the O2 and Qualia both have small openings around the ears from the drivers. Where as phones like the HE90, HE60, and HD800 have large openings around the ears. If area around the ears does affect precision vs diffusion, then I suspect that the Qualia obtains its larger soundfield with the angle of the drivers compared to the less aggresive driver angle of the O2.

As far as the SR-007 is concerned, the way sonic images are portrayed is just incredibly realistic and much more mature than most everything out there. If you can get past the initial awe of hearing phones with exagerated soundstages and diffused images, then you can start to appreciate the layers of well defined sonic images and textures that can make it an experience much more than the stereotypical headphone presentation.
I recall this review although I have not read it in some time. I guessed that his detail-perceived-distance argument was based on a comparison between perceptual stimuli for distance as they occur in vision and audition.

It has been argued for some time in experimental psychology that one of the monocular stimuli for distance(i.e. distance cues not dependant on comparing differences betwen the images of the two eyes, or non-Avatar stereoscopy) is a blurring of detail with increasing distance of objects from the observer. This relationship arises in part because of the inability of the visual system to register details as objects become smaller in size on the retina with increasing distance. Basically we run up against the limit of resolution of the visual system. Also atmosperic pollution and moisture may block out more details as more atmosphere comes between the observer and the object.

Something like this may also occur in listening to sounds. Certainly as distance is increased from a sound source, high frequencies decline so in that sense sonic detail is lost with distance. The reverse side of this argument may be what people sometimes call "presence" in a recording or playback system. If there are clear and prominent mid and upper frequencies one may perceive the music as being closer.
post #11 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobbaddict View Post
They let music flow outside the headphone. But isn't it a bit artificial? Speakers don't let sound spread outside the room, why would headphones do that?
Headphones do not try to replicate the sound of a pair of speakers but the reality, just like speakers try. It would be funny to try to match against something imperfect.
post #12 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypasswordis View Post
What does this even mean?
Well just imagine the headphone is a small room with big speakers inside
The sound of a real speaker is retained within a room (for obvious reasons, but how would it sound outdoors?), whereas the sound of most open headphones flows outside the headstage. Lambdas don't seem to have any sound attenuation for instance. I'm just wondering if the imaging and detail aren't worse because of that.
Maybe this explanation is clearer:

Quote:
The SR-Lambda Professional and the HD414 Classic are almost transparent to sounds. Even when they are worn, outside sounds reach listener’s ear and the produced sound is radiated outside. Accordingly, one subject can hear stimuli presented to another when multiple subjects sit next to one another and different stimuli are simultaneously presented to them. The subjects preferred to use circumaural headphones that have better sound attenuation characteristics, such as the DT48 or the HDA200. They reported that they could concentrate on the sound stimuli even when experiments were carried out in a quiet soundproof room (noise floor: 25 dBA).
post #13 of 59
Great Writeup's.. and thoughts...

Do I think that the Stax 007's have a constricted soundstage? No... But do I think that it has a huge soundstage? No again... I think that it is good to very good for what it is. It has the ability, when properly driven, to give multiple layers of depth information (hearing performers behind others), casting instruments very well from left to right. And can at times give very good 3D presentations.

But I kind of consider most headphone soundstage to be fake. Most music (other than binaural recordings) are not recorded or mixed with headphones in mind. The only time that I have had a headphone come close to a soundstage is the L1000's... but they are more like earspeakers. Or the Sigma's had some fun stuff going on. Anti-soundstage headphones to me were the 4070's... great detail, but you were not in the group, you were in the instruments.

Cheers,
post #14 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobbaddict View Post
...They let music flow outside the headphone. But isn't it a bit artificial? Speakers don't let sound spread outside the room...
As a matter of fact some speakers do. I've listened to speakers that create a soundstage which exceeds the room's volume. It's incorrect and artificial but they can do it.
........
Unlike the vertical and horizontal localization of the sounds the human ear is less capable to judge the distance. For this judgement most important criteria are some low frequency components of the sound (some frequencies fade away when the destination grows). The human ear can easily be mislead about the distance by manipulating frequencies.
I think this is the root of the problem.
post #15 of 59
None of you quite understand exactly what you are talking about. The analogy is wrong.
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