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Audible differences between WAV and FLAC? - Page 3

post #31 of 44
3/19/10 at 1:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek View Post
If the info is buffered, the jitter from the decode wouldn't matter at all right?

Please stop saying open minded for things like 1+1=3.
Yes, although due to the large current spikes from the CPU or other onboard digital logic, and very fast edge rates, power supply ripple or ground bounce could theoretically affect the sound card's power/ground rails, thereby affecting the sound card's oscillator. In the case of WAV, with an efficient algorithm basically the data just needs to be streamed to the sound card, whereas with FLAC there is a little bit of decoding required. It's a long shot to say the least, but I haven't seen any good measurements either way, so suspended judgement is called for.
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post #32 of 44
3/19/10 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek View Post
Please stop saying open minded for things like 1+1=3.
Are you alright mate? I didn't see anybody say 1+1=3 - I double checked the whole thread, heck I double checked the whole forum. Your imagining things.
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post #33 of 44
3/19/10 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
Are you alright mate? I didn't see anybody say 1+1=3 - I double checked the whole thread, heck I double checked the whole forum. Your imagining things.
Actually, I'm open minded that somebody might have said it. We just might not see it. Somebody might see it though. Lets all be open minded about it.
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post #34 of 44
3/19/10 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
Yes, although due to the large current spikes from the CPU or other onboard digital logic, and very fast edge rates, power supply ripple or ground bounce could theoretically affect the sound card's power/ground rails, thereby affecting the sound card's oscillator. In the case of WAV, with an efficient algorithm basically the data just needs to be streamed to the sound card, whereas with FLAC there is a little bit of decoding required. It's a long shot to say the least, but I haven't seen any good measurements either way, so suspended judgement is called for.
This would be hard to prove, however, because whenever a computer is playing a WAV file it's STILL doing about a million things with the other clock cycles available to it, any one of which could in theory create the same spikes to distress or otherwise mess with the sound card's decoding of the signal. The actual FLAC-decoding process, as I understand it, isn't the "electric chair in a small town-prison makes the lights dim" thing that would create such rail effects that you could easily spot them compared to those from more routine background processes.
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post #35 of 44
3/20/10 at 12:30am
"Oh dear! I have so much money, and I simply cannot seem to stop remembering such a fact!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek View Post
"Get a mac and forget about it"
"My hero!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
Yes, although due to the large current spikes from the CPU or other onboard digital logic, and very fast edge rates, power supply ripple or ground bounce could theoretically affect the sound card's power/ground rails, thereby affecting the sound card's oscillator. In the case of WAV, with an efficient algorithm basically the data just needs to be streamed to the sound card, whereas with FLAC there is a little bit of decoding required. It's a long shot to say the least, but I haven't seen any good measurements either way, so suspended judgement is called for.
Yeah, theoretically it can happen. But we're talking about humans, not dogs. Even if it can happen, can we hear it? I refuse to believe that anyone, golden canals be damned, can hear some of the things they claim to hear. And this doesn't necessarily apply to the FLAC/WAV debate, but if they do have ears able to pick up on the slightest bit of distortion in the electric signal moving a far-from-perfect driver in far-from-perfect air, they need to just stop and find a new hobby because they'll end up spending $3000(+++) trying to fix what will never be fixed.

As someone's sig says, it should be about the music. And this is me: Not about the audible difference between .zip and .rar.

Additionally, if it's the processing the CPU puts the file through causing the infinitely minuscule difference in sound quality, that's not an inherent difference between the files. By definition, there is no difference between the files besides size and what can play it. The problem then lies with the CPU, which just like cables and interconnects and whatever else is an extra variable in the path of the sound. Better just stick with vinyl if you can hear the difference, because there's going to be some difference created by the processor, or hard drive, or RAM regardless.
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post #36 of 44
3/20/10 at 1:25am
edit: n/m broken link
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post #37 of 44
3/20/10 at 1:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post
"Oh dear! I have so much money, and I simply cannot seem to stop remembering such a fact!"

"My hero!"
Your quote confuses me. Just so we are clear, I was quoting his idea and making fun of it. I despise the idea.

As long as we are both being sarcastic, than we are on the same page. It throws me off that you only quoted me as saying what he said.
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post #38 of 44
3/20/10 at 2:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek View Post
Your quote confuses me. Just so we are clear, I was quoting his idea and making fun of it. I despise the idea.

As long as we are both being sarcastic, than we are on the same page. It throws me off that you only quoted me as saying what he said.
Sorry. Yes, I was being sarcastic. Probably should have included the quote "is pretty much the worst answer to any problem anyway."
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post #39 of 44
3/20/10 at 5:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post
Yeah, theoretically it can happen. But we're talking about humans, not dogs. Even if it can happen, can we hear it? I refuse to believe that anyone, golden canals be damned, can hear some of the things they claim to hear. And this doesn't necessarily apply to the FLAC/WAV debate, but if they do have ears able to pick up on the slightest bit of distortion in the electric signal moving a far-from-perfect driver in far-from-perfect air, they need to just stop and find a new hobby because they'll end up spending $3000(+++) trying to fix what will never be fixed.
I see where you're coming from. On the balance of evidence you're probably right.

On another note, it's actually pretty easy to "fix" the problem. You simply send the clock back from the DAC to the PC. That way, noise on the PC becomes irrelevant. It's due to a lack of driver support on the part of Windows that this isn't done very often. You can find some DACs that do it, although at a price.
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post #40 of 44
3/20/10 at 8:02am
CPU is not an extra variable in the rig. If it were, it must have been malfunctioned. Really, changing bits of music at random is a clear sign of something very bad going on. And even then, say there is a single 0/1 difference each second, something like 1/1000000 of the whole information being processed every second, even in such hypothetical (but yet impossible) situation... Are you going to hear it?

So, if everyone agrees that the difference between FLAC and WAV lies in the first's sweetening effect of TAGs and saved storage space.... Why bother? (unless you want to train your English/typing speed)
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post #41 of 44
3/20/10 at 10:44am
It has nothing to do with changing bits. It helps to read the thread before commenting.
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post #42 of 44
3/20/10 at 1:58pm
Either way, the extra processing FLAC calls for is nothing compared with the routine tasks performed by the computer. Hey, even your graphic card introduces more pollution when you're scrolling down this page!

The conclusion would be: take the soundcard physically out of the computer, and someone comes up with the USB solution. And the thread magically disappears.
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post #43 of 44
3/20/10 at 2:43pm
if there was any audible difference, it would be the fault of the player/decoder, or the hardware performing this, or it didn't encode/rip properly. The amount of 1s and 0s should be the same when decoded and decompressed.

didn't vote, there should be be a "there is no difference" option.
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post #44 of 44
3/20/10 at 5:17pm
Little theory: Because of the decoding there is some lag, and the sound might want to catch up with it.
Solution: let the decoding happen in a buffer, before playing, so it essentially becomes a wav file while playing..
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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › Audible differences between WAV and FLAC?