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AGAINST JH/UE DRIVER WARS: A First view of EarSonics EM3-Pro Customs - Page 4

post #46 of 170
@shigzeo, what is your favourite custom now?
post #47 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post
What I don't like is the connector, but then, I don't like the JHA/Westone connector. You CAN ask Earsonics to build a countersunk model for you, but I didn't think of that.
Seems like Earsonics is now gonna include a countersunk socket in all its models : EarSonics ® / Ear Sonics in-ear monitors / custom earphones / in ears / ear monitors / earplugs / earmolds.
post #48 of 170
@KLS - hard to say. I really like the EM3Pro's mellowness, but I LOVE treble sparkle. I think the JH13Pro straight from anything has the advantage of sparkle, but when amped, tends to mellow out.

The FitEar is still my most exciting earphone - not that it's not neutral, but it does mid/upper frequencies so damn well. I am quite in love, but which is best is hard to say?

The ACS T1 may have the best 'tainted' bass of the lot - it is deep and has lots to say with a great voice. The EM3Pro's midrange is killer, PRAT for the FE333, low-mids and bass for the T1. The JH13Pro is the all-rounder, but I find myself reaching for earphones which more to say in either frequency more often.
post #49 of 170
I will put this out: The EM3Pro shows its metal in that it is the least source dependent of the bunch.

I've not used it with other than my Sonys, iPod touch, Clip, Fuze, S:Flo (not mine), and AMP3, but I can say that apart from their unique signatures, the EM3Pro is pretty damn flat across the board - there is less audible deviation from weak sources than there is with my other iems.
post #50 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post
@KLS - hard to say. I really like the EM3Pro's mellowness, but I LOVE treble sparkle. I think the JH13Pro straight from anything has the advantage of sparkle, but when amped, tends to mellow out.

The FitEar is still my most exciting earphone - not that it's not neutral, but it does mid/upper frequencies so damn well. I am quite in love, but which is best is hard to say?

The ACS T1 may have the best 'tainted' bass of the lot - it is deep and has lots to say with a great voice. The EM3Pro's midrange is killer, PRAT for the FE333, low-mids and bass for the T1. The JH13Pro is the all-rounder, but I find myself reaching for earphones which more to say in either frequency more often.
Somebody is showing off his collections

Thanks for the info!
post #51 of 170
Thread Starter 
Its been more than 2 months since I got my EM3-Pro's and I can say that every day I love them more. I have decided to transfer my JH13pro's to a friend that wants them and I most certainly will also sell my Ultrasone Ed.8's.

These customs have changed my perception of what a custom is and have redefined the possible in portability to me, thus the only other portable set I might keep is my UltraFatCat Baby Stax, mainly because sometimes I dont need isolation.

I agree with Shigzeo in regards to their neutrality, but where I can disagree a bit is in his description of the slight treble roll-off. For me the treble is perfect, its clear, crisp, defined, airy and powerful but it doesnt outshine all the other freqs, its so perfectly balanced that it gives a permanent sense of liquidity, one note after the other, one freq after the other this headphones are a luxury to hear, the harmonics at the high freqs makes the sound lush, smooth but ultra detailed and refined, I know it sounds like a contradiction but this is the only way I can describe it.

The mids, well I completely agree with shigzeo, they are the best I have heard in any headphone except -possibly- the R10's and my full size stax. Not only the perfect liquid tone I described, but the air around the notes seems to reverberate and produce a very believable soundstage. Space is there, the space of the performance is there and marries with the highs, mids and lows to perfection.

I promised to write a review but I have just been to busy to do it, I will, soon.... But for now, these are my comments....
post #52 of 170
Please write detailed review and include comparison with JH13Pro. I just want to ask you about soundstage on these two IEMs and is it expensive(width, depth, hight)on both or?
post #53 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZARIM View Post
Please write detailed review and include comparison with JH13Pro. I just want to ask you about soundstage on these two IEMs and is it expensive(width, depth, hight)on both or?
I will... regarding soundstage I think the jh13pro's and em3pro's are very different. Although both have a very good soundstage one tends towards expansiveness (JH13's) and the other towards spaciousness and the realistic (em3pro).

The EM3pro renders the space around instruments and the performance in a very realistic way, if you are listening to a string quartet in a small hall you will hear the size of the hall, if you are listening to a large concert in a stadium you will hear the stadium. In other words the soundstage is flexible! it can be intimate and it can be expansive. It might be that their neutrality allows them to do this...

On the other hand, the JH's seem all the time expansive in comparison, im not saying that they are bad, actually they are very good at it. Lets just say that their soundstage is nicely colored and sometimes over done, they are not about rendering space but of about putting performance in space.

If you like expansive then the jh13's are the ones, if you like realism and textural space then the EM3pro's are on their own. I myself prefer the EarSonics by a large margin.
post #54 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post
I hope you didn't either. One thing EQ's are good for (especially in portable audio) is restoring somewhat what the amp (of the internal machine) cannot do. A lot of players have roll off with hard to drive earphones like these.

Some are severe (my fitear 333 - huge treble suckout of about 3-5 decibels) and even the JHA models cause a little bit of confusion.

We are not talking about high end audio here - we are talking about high en ear speaker attached to pretty worthless audio players (for the most part). Sometimes, they need to be EQ'd to get back what they are losing from improperly driving the earphones.

Some earphones, however, tend to have less a negative impact on the output than others.

The EM3Pro is one. However, it looks to be pretty damn flat - in other words, flat like a machine. The mids are most prominent, but the treble and bass are great.

In some ways, it caters to professionals, as French said, but in some ways it shouldn't. No earphone should cater 100% without the professionals finding the deficiencies of their output first, then the deficiencies of their ears second (or vica versa).

At the ear, the JH13Pro may be more neutral, presenting low and upper detail at higher volumes than the EM3Pro. But both presentations will have their fans.

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' simply because we are not all plugged into the same sources with the same ears. If we were, then one would have to go.

EQ is bad is a silly saying, especially with portable sources which may need it. If the sources were 100% accurate under any load, under any stress, with every earphone, then why not?

The EM3Pro goes for signal neutrality, not 'human ear' neutrality. I tend to really like it - a lot.
Lol, if it does, never mind, i like democratic debates unlike the general election for new prime minister in my country that is going on at the moment!

In essence then unless i get say a Hi-fi man or a portable amp for a dap the portable sources out there do not cut it and need EQ settings adjusted to make up for the sort comings of the player.
That means there is still a long way to go in technology of daps with the in built amp component's then.

Gee, i am not used to this, in the speaker domain with hi-fi's the components are of high quality and do not use EQ's at all as this would detract from the point of high end separate systems in the first place.

I did have the Cowon D2 for a year an admit i had to EQ it to get the right sound from it, but that is half the reason i let it go in the first place after a year of having it as i wanted a player that was manufactered and designed to sound good straight out the box without the need to EQ it.
I suppose this is why we have the Hi-Fi Man that uses the best quality components for high end portable audio or does that need EQ as well?

Currently have the Sony X and am happy enough with the SQ that i do not need to resort to using it's EQ setting's, not sure if that will change when i get customs soon, who knows? but even with the SE530's that have a slight tendency for bass roll of and my IE8's i enjoyed the X at neutral sound setting's.

I see what you are saying shigzeo and did not realize this was such a wide spread issue amongst daps with iem's, appreciate you explaining it to me but i will stick to my speaker philosophy if the source is not good enough to perform in it's natural form out of the box it gets shown the door until i find that perfect player, same with iem's as well.

It is most probably a more painful journey trying to find all the components that will have a good/perfect synergy with each other but a educational and fun one all the same and when the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is found it will be a momentous day with many happy hours, years of listening ahead

Getting slowly back on track with the EM3 pros i wonder if people who get this custom with their natural, flat response quality end up still EQ the dap for any shortcomings so they do not in turn get the true naturalistic reproduction that the EM3's "ear speakers" SQ can offer?

The EM3 pros i now have in contention at the 11th hour with the JH13 & 16 pros i originally have been contemplating at getting as i will be going to my UK dealer next Friday who has both the JHpros and Earsonics where i will listen to the demo 13 & 16's and (unfortunately) the EM3's they have are custom shells made for someones ear (dealers pair, not customers!) and not a demo pair that i will be trying, so will not get the perfect seal i would of thought, but hopefully can still get a good idea what the SQ is like to compare hopefully.

What interest me is after reading about the EM3 Pros sig described on here reminds me of the SQ my SE530's had which had a neutral/flat balanced sound with really nice mids which i really liked and where my favorite universal iem i have ever had, but i am currently using the cheaper JVC fx500 woodies whilst in my transition period at the moment until i get my customs and despite these been the heaviest and deepest bass response i have heard in an iem (better than twice the price iem's such as my old IE8's) i really like this type of bass also, which is how i imagine the JH16 pros from what has been described on the JH threads, so will be interesting to see which one between the French or American offering will float my boat next week...

So for those that are fortunate to own either 13 or a 16 pro and the EM3 pro the driver count does not necessarily mean better SQ then?

Don't like to talk numbers with how many drivers etc, but does make me wonder if the EM3 can produce a good as standard in sound with it's 3 drivers albeit a different sound Sig then why so many drivers with the JHpros?
Or have i just answered my own question there? lol
post #55 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FortisFlyer75 View Post
So for those that are fortunate to own either 13 or a 16 pro and the EM3 pro the driver count does not necessarily mean better SQ then?

Don't like to talk numbers with how many drivers etc, but does make me wonder if the EM3 can produce a good as standard in sound with it's 3 drivers albeit a different sound Sig then why so many drivers with the JHpros?
Or have i just answered my own question there? lol
The number of drivers in a custom doesn't mean a lot, imo its more a marketing fancy than a performance one. Or if you want look at it from the full size headphone perspective, how many cans with 2 drivers do you know? or even better from the full size speaker perspective, most of the best speakers in the world are 2 or 3 way max (this is because a crossover is critical in signal degradation and deviation, the less the better!). My Kharma's are two way and I still have to listen to any multi-way speaker between 20k-30k that beats them. In the pinacle of IEM's, Final, Etymotic and others are single driver.
post #56 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyDebord View Post
The number of drivers in a custom doesn't mean a lot, imo its more a marketing fancy than a performance one. Or if you want look at it from the full size headphone perspective, how many cans with 2 drivers do you know? or even better from the full size speaker perspective, most of the best speakers in the world are 2 or 3 way max (this is because a crossover is critical in signal degradation and deviation, the less the better!). My Kharma's are two way and I still have to listen to any multi-way speaker between 20k-30k that beats them. In the pinacle of IEM's, Final, Etymotic and others are single driver.
Interestingly observed point GuyDebord ; )

But why go through that trouble for fancy marketing purposes if it is going to potentially could degrade the SQ or not actually improve the sound in any way? does not make sense to me in that respect

But it is an interesting comparison that is true in light of crossover designs in speaker configurations (again, many debates have been had there for many a year in the speaker fraternity!), so there is no difference in the way this theory happens with iem's custom drivers then?.

Well, will be interesting then in light of that next Friday then to see or should i say hear what custom's from the JH13, 16 & EM3pro my ears will pick as i have to go with that old saying modified slightly in not the "head rule the hear"t, but my "ears rule my heart" as which ever one makes my spine tingle the most from sheer audio nirvana will get my vote.

I am sure all three mentioned above still sound stella and out of this world (compared to the universals i have experienced) and for the money i hope so, but again for that outlay it has to be done in a critical manner of comparison which may be subjective as to finally make some sort of final decision.

Maybe the runner up will be my second custom buy in the future so have a good back up if one blows a fuse!
post #57 of 170
I don't really want to get into the driver debate - it's just not my thing. I am more a performance guy, spit and simple. The EM3Pro isn't much like the SE530 other than the pretty flat bass and mids. Its treble extends further; in fact, it extends further than a lot of iems, but isn't accentuated.

I have the A845 which uses the similar S-master amp, the AMP3, an iPod nano 1G, iPod touch 3G, Clip V2, Fuze V2, Sony A828, and the T51 (on loan). I've owned MD's and a lot more and to be honest, portable music isn't like home audio.

Speakers don't overwhelm the outputs of their amps in the same way as iems do DAPs. It has long been known that certain DAPs simply cannot push certain frequencies, or bump severely in distortion when driving iem loads. When I say iem, I generally refer to the balanced armature/multiple voice iems.

But, a lot of DAPs cannot properly drive balanced armatures either. Especially, they lose bass definition.

Whether you are or are not against EQ is another debate - what IS at stake is that your earphones are probably never being driven correctly, or only mostly driven correctly. The reason I tend to shy away from my Sony is the hiss (and background 'ticking' sound, and the fact that it rolls off with any earphone). It is a finely voiced player though: smooth (of course, the dynamics get cut out) sounding device.

I also like the FX500 and they do an excellent job showing the difference between well-driven sound and shoddily-driven sound. A listen to an iPod nano 1G versus the touch 2G is a good example of that: bass is articulate with the latter, defined, and rumbly. The former has a bit, but tends to boom only. Each have the same quantity and both sound good. But the latter is balanced with rumble and presence.

With multiple balanced armature earphones, things can go wonky. My FitEar 333 (hitherto favourites) can have a strange Ultrasone sound (weird suckout in the upper mid/lower treble) - it sounds good, but 'off' when not driven fully in the treble. EQ of course, isn't a cure-all. But a good EQ restores a bit of self-respect to a tired DAP.

Also, it can correct certain overemphasis in the DAP or the earphones. I know that some audiophiles hate EQ, but especially portably, I don't get it.
post #58 of 170
I wonder if there is anyone in headfi who has JH10.

how would JH10 do with its signature flatness?
post #59 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post
I don't really want to get into the driver debate - it's just not my thing. I am more a performance guy, spit and simple. The EM3Pro isn't much like the SE530 other than the pretty flat bass and mids. Its treble extends further; in fact, it extends further than a lot of iems, but isn't accentuated.

I have the A845 which uses the similar S-master amp, the AMP3, an iPod nano 1G, iPod touch 3G, Clip V2, Fuze V2, Sony A828, and the T51 (on loan). I've owned MD's and a lot more and to be honest, portable music isn't like home audio.

Speakers don't overwhelm the outputs of their amps in the same way as iems do DAPs. It has long been known that certain DAPs simply cannot push certain frequencies, or bump severely in distortion when driving iem loads. When I say iem, I generally refer to the balanced armature/multiple voice iems.

But, a lot of DAPs cannot properly drive balanced armatures either. Especially, they lose bass definition.

Whether you are or are not against EQ is another debate - what IS at stake is that your earphones are probably never being driven correctly, or only mostly driven correctly. The reason I tend to shy away from my Sony is the hiss (and background 'ticking' sound, and the fact that it rolls off with any earphone). It is a finely voiced player though: smooth (of course, the dynamics get cut out) sounding device.

I also like the FX500 and they do an excellent job showing the difference between well-driven sound and shoddily-driven sound. A listen to an iPod nano 1G versus the touch 2G is a good example of that: bass is articulate with the latter, defined, and rumbly. The former has a bit, but tends to boom only. Each have the same quantity and both sound good. But the latter is balanced with rumble and presence.

With multiple balanced armature earphones, things can go wonky. My FitEar 333 (hitherto favourites) can have a strange Ultrasone sound (weird suckout in the upper mid/lower treble) - it sounds good, but 'off' when not driven fully in the treble. EQ of course, isn't a cure-all. But a good EQ restores a bit of self-respect to a tired DAP.

Also, it can correct certain overemphasis in the DAP or the earphones. I know that some audiophiles hate EQ, but especially portably, I don't get it.
I think performance is what we are all looking for at the end of the day, SQ is the bottom line in audio despite all the talk of the cogs and gubbings that makes them tick on the technical side.

So in respect with what you are saying about most daps having trouble driving iem's properly then a porta amp would correct this problem then i would of thought? - as that will be my next purchase once i have got my customs anyway.
Would the HiFi Man correct this issue also with it's high end components inside?

Despite me favoring my E500's i had for two years and loved the SQ sig, the transitional pair of iems in the fx500's i am currently using until i get my customs does have this visceral bass which surprised me how much i have taken to it after my much beloved E500 sig and for a $130 iem is quite a awesome feat with the the quality of the bass for how deep it manages to go.

So makes me wonder on the basis of those two iems which custom i will end up with between the EM3pro and JH1xpro's which will be interesting to find out when i demo them all this Friday with liking two different Signatures here that are both very different.

I will not knock anyone for using EQ's certainly,do i hate EQ, only in the sense of a proper Hi-Fi speaker set up which does not use EQ's in the chain no matter what, but hate EQ in a portable ear set up after what you have explained would be a No but personally i prefer not to use EQ just out of how i have been brought up within the speaker set up fraternity of Hi fidelity set ups (habits die hard) which do not use EQ's in the chain, but can understand after your explanation which i did not realize was the case as i have only been into the world of head Hi-Fi the last year on a more serious level it is a different kettle of fish in the portable domain and admit i even used EQ for the year i had the Cowon D2 which made it sound a lot better, which was not saying much for the unnatural flat house sound of the D2 in my personal opinion.

I will strive for portable perfection in the natural form if if possible and if there is a dap that can deliver (perhaps one day in the masses i am sure the technology will get there eventually?) , if not i will just simply give up and join the EQ tweakers out there

Can the EM3 pro still hit good lows when asked from a recording or does it only go down to a certain range and roll off?

I found with the E500 which in comparison to other iem's out there was fairly light weight with it's bass (refined and conservative maybe?), but when a top notch recording came the bass would go a lot lower than i gave it recognition for and at times could still have a nice rumble occasionally when that fine recording came along and made me think where did that just come from?

So just wonder with the EM3pro having flat bass response whether it can still have the presence to go lower than expected in certain recordings call upon it to like i described with my old E500's and maybe still provide that visceral rumble or two?
post #60 of 170
Thread Starter 

Just a fast update:

I already parted with the JH13pro's and Im not going to miss them at all! the EM3pro's have become my portable of choice and for sure the best I have heard in this category. 

 

I was flying today and I couldnt believe the level of fidelity I was hearing at 30,000 feet. They are beyond magical, they are for me the ONE's!


Edited by GuyDebord - 5/11/10 at 8:59pm
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