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Isone Pro - the best thing you could ever get for your headphones on your computer - Page 39

post #571 of 850

Are you suggesting that if everything sounds great without the plugin enabled, and only sounds bad with the plugin enabled, that it is something other than the plugin?  Given the hardware I have, I'm really skeptical, but I'd love to hear what you think it could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post

Well, something is probably wrong with your digital signal chain somewhere.  I've used a few different versions of Isone and I've never heard anything like that.  I use foobar myself but Lunatique uses J River.

post #572 of 850

That is the part that is really confusing to me.  The plugin is apparently absolutely perfect and if you point out any flaws you are a hater?  Why can't I share my experience with the product if it's negative? Isn't that what these forums are about?  Sharing consumer to consumer experiences so we can work out what to spend our money on without having to buy everything and try it all.  No apparently it's about product evangelism.  

 

The sad thing is I really want for this product to work. It's pretty much my goal out of head-fi.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Why are there such extremes opinions on this thread?  It's either "haters gonna hate" or this plug in "distorts and compresses."  C'mon.

 

 

post #573 of 850
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post

2b4f5b61_205516021.jpeg

 

Haters gonna hate...

 

Seriously though.  If you hear gross distortion/digital clipping then turn down the Speaker Level dial until you don't see it clipping on the integrated level meter. (The meter is only in the newer versions upgrade if necessary.)

 

Here's the quick and dirty way to calibrate it.  Find a track that's minimally produced with a natural sound and has lots of instruments with lots of overtones and harmonics like snare drums, bells, and other types of percussion that are panned well off to the side.  Such instruments cover a wide range of frequencies and thus are easier to localize in space IRL.  Load the "Calibrate me!" preset, set it dual mono and play with the Ear size until it sound like it's directly in front of you.  Then set it to left or right and play with the head size until it it sounds like it's coming from a 30 degree angle.

 

That won't be perfect but it should work pretty nicely for most people and you can fine tune from there.  If it doesn't work then you may just not like it or have a catastrophically incompatible HRTF.  Each person's HRTF is different and it is dependent on your individual anatomy.  Isone has useful adjustments but if you're too far from average it just may not work at all for you.

 

Also, another big thanks to Lunatique for introducing me to Isone.  I absolutely love it.  I'm not an audio professional of any kind and use it just listening for pleasure.

Tried this but even with the ear size adjustment there's almost no change in the sound. I also hear distortion when using this plugin.

post #574 of 850
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Wasn't referring to your post 'ronin.  The humor in your posts was sufficiently summed up by meme, the "seriously though" and the general tone of your other posts 'round head-fi.  

 

I missed that someone else said the same thing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIFOSP View Post

Are you suggesting that if everything sounds great without the plugin enabled, and only sounds bad with the plugin enabled, that it is something other than the plugin?  Given the hardware I have, I'm really skeptical, but I'd love to hear what you think it could be.

 

I was talking about the software side.  Sorry I wasn't clear.  Something along the lines of that particular version of Isone not getting along with the exact version of the VST host you're using if one of them has a bug.  If you're running other DSPs besides Isone they could be interacting like that as well.

 

Honestly it doesn't seem very likely but if you're actually hearing some sort of gross distortion then something has to be wrong somewhere.  I've never heard those kind of artifacts from it when it wasn't clipping.

post #575 of 850

If anyone is interested, I received a reply from Jeroen on how Isone compensates for angled drivers:

 

"That is somewhat difficult to say, as I don't know the transfer from those headphone drivers to the ear drums.

Isone allows to reduce or switch off the 'HRTF strength'. This disables or weakens the elevation and front/back cues in the signal. If the angled headphone drivers provide such cues, you can reduce them with the HRTF strength control and adjust them to your liking.

Still I have doubts whether such angled drivers can have the same effect as a point 
source a few meters away."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post

Honestly it doesn't seem very likely but if you're actually hearing some sort of gross distortion then something has to be wrong somewhere.  I've never heard those kind of artifacts from it when it wasn't clipping.

 

+1.  

post #576 of 850
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIFOSP View Post

I never said it didn't sound like headphones.  I said it sounded bad.  Especially cymbals.

 

I use jriver which has clipping protection for starters.  I don't turn it on because the peak level with the plugin on never approaches 100.  

 

I have just went through the steps you mentioned with Miles Davis and some Aaron Copland and I can still hear, quite obviously, tinny compressed cymbals with stepped decay when compared to having the plugin off.  The speaker level setting ended up at about 9 o clock and the peak level never went past 50%.

 

The size of your head and ears will have nothing to do with the frequency sounding off, and the processing artifacts that are audible.  You are arguing a point as if I don't believe that it works to put the sound in front of you.  Which what I am saying is that regardless of how the plugin affects the sound stage, the sound quality is noticeably worse.

 

For what it's worth I am using TB_Isone v2.5.0 Demo with JRiver media center 17.0.147.  

 

 

For those of you who are having problems with Isone, why don't you guys just contact Jeroen like I have suggested several times in this thread? He's incredibly open-minded and friendly, very receptive to criticism and suggestions, and when I gave him my feedback on how to improve Isone in the past, he was always very gracious and appreciative. He knows Isone better than anyone, and he'll be able to tell you whether something is wrong if you're hearing things that he did not intend Isone to do to your signal chain. 

 

Seriously, have you guys thought about the possibility that maybe you're not hearing what Jeroen intended Isone to sound like? Maybe there is a glitch somewhere in your signal chain that may or may not be caused by Isone? Talk to Jeroen and he'll help you figure it out. The guy knows more about audio and DSP than any member at head-fi, bar none, and if you guys are passionate about audio, he just might be the most knowledgeable/experienced/authoritative person you'll ever talk to about audio, so why not take this chance and talk to him?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Why are there such extremes opinions on this thread?  It's either "haters gonna hate" or this plug in "distorts and compresses."  C'mon.

 

The plug in is good, and it works as advertised, and whether you like what it does or not is a different matter.  I feel like that line has been posted a hundred times in this thread.  When I had some clipping issues, I simply adjusted the level knob to fix it.  

 

Did I notice a loss in certain low level detail w/ Isone?  Yes.  But that's only because that's how speakers would sound sitting in a room 2 meters from you!  The goal of the plug in is to create a more natural presentation, which it does pretty well for something that costs so little--increasing detail retrieval is not it's goal.  

 

To do that, get better headphones with a faster diaphragm!  Then make sure your chain is up the task.  And you know what, maybe that's what accounts for the discrepancy in opinions here--from what I see Luna owns O2s.  Stax are hyper detailed.  I've found the most success using Isone with DBA-02/B2 IEMs, also known for being hyper detailed.  The recording/mastering was also a variable.

 

The truth about Isone, as it so often does, lies somewhere in the middle I think.  Isone's not so good as to replace actual speakers, or maybe it's not even as good as the Realizer (gasp).

 

Some may not like it enough to concede that it sounds as good as their speakers.  I can understand that.  Their opinions aren't invalid, and I certainly don't presume that all these people simply need to learn to appreciate it better as a "real life audio professional" might.  We all have a wealth of experience with our ears, and we have all certainly heard enough speakers and headphones to know the difference between the two.  Hopefully we'll have more tempered posts here, and hopefully refrain from hyperbole.

 
 

I no longer have the Stax rig--I sold it. I prefer my LCD-2 (using my custom EQ curve).

 

And you're so right about how Isone is meant to be used. Its job is NOT to increase detail retrieval--it's actually in many ways, to decrease it.

 

Isone was created for audio professionals to test out their mixes in virtual environments and different emulations of speaker cabinets, so they can make sure their mixes sound good in all kinds of different environments and on all kinds of different speaker systems--from tinny laptop speakers, flat screen TV speakers, all the way to high-end speakers, as well as anywhere from standing in the hallway with the door closed, in tiny square rooms, to large living rooms. So many of these combinations will alter the audio dramatically, and not in a good way--that's all intentional. But it is also capable of creating the illusion of a very pleasant virtual environment using emulation of a totally neutral/flat virtual speakers.

 

It may not be hyper-detailed compared to typical headphone listening where the drivers are right next to your eardrums, but it should approximate how speakers should sound when placed a couple of meters away from your ears in front of you, and by pushing the sound away from you by a couple of meters and having the sound intermingle with the virtual room's acoustics, of course it's going to decrease that hyper-detailed sound into a smoother, more natural sound. Some people who mistakenly want Isone to retain the same hyper-detail as having the drivers right next to their eardrums simply have incorrect expectations of Isone--they simply do not understand the purpose of Isone and why someone would want to use it.

 

As for those who simply think it sounds bad--I really don't know what to think of that. I have no idea if they're using the plugin incorrectly, or have software/driver/hardware conflicts causing distortion/artifacts. I have no way of knowing whether what they are hearing is identical to what I'm hearing on my end. And because the way they describe the sound they are hearing is so different from what I'm hearing, I can only assume they aren't hearing what I'm hearing--including the fact that we are physiologically different from one another (which explains why different people would listen to the exact same rig but have drastically different opinions of it--they don't have the same ears/brain/conditioning from experience, so they in fact, don't hear/perceive that rig in the same way).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post

I was talking about the software side.  Sorry I wasn't clear.  Something along the lines of that particular version of Isone not getting along with the exact version of the VST host you're using if one of them has a bug.  If you're running other DSPs besides Isone they could be interacting like that as well.

 

Honestly it doesn't seem very likely but if you're actually hearing some sort of gross distortion then something has to be wrong somewhere.  I've never heard those kind of artifacts from it when it wasn't clipping.

 

It could be anything that's causing problems in the signal chain. It could be the sound card/audio interface's driver (for example, I've had a lot of problems with Creative's drivers in the past, causing all kinds of odd glitches), or any kind of weird bug from any number of software that is being run in that computer, or a faulty installation of a software, or bad interaction between software/plugins, or something in the hardware chain, or just someone's physiology being very unique. 

post #577 of 850

I don't use sound cards.  I'm using a lavry da11 or schiit bifrost.  The da11 is a pretty pro piece of audio gear, and while I accept it may have a conflict, I hear the same issue on both dacs.

post #578 of 850

@Lunatique,

The difference is pretty real, and the stated effects (default setups) do seem to work well, but they emulate loudspeaker setups.

Are there any headphone specific settings/defaults that can be used ?

post #579 of 850

There is crossfeed still.

Try out BS2B

post #580 of 850
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIFOSP View Post

I don't use sound cards.  I'm using a lavry da11 or schiit bifrost.  The da11 is a pretty pro piece of audio gear, and while I accept it may have a conflict, I hear the same issue on both dacs.

 

I highly recommend you contact Jeroen. There is no better person to answer your questions or to address your concerns than the guy who created Isone.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

@Lunatique,

The difference is pretty real, and the stated effects (default setups) do seem to work well, but they emulate loudspeaker setups.

Are there any headphone specific settings/defaults that can be used ?

 

I don't understand the question--can you elaborate? The whole point of any crossfeed or HRTF/room emulation products is to create the illusion of loudspeakers in front of you while using headphones, so what would be "headphone specific settings/defaults"?  

 

If you don't want to emulate any specific type of loudspeakers and want basically the most neutral setting, then use the "Flat" preset for the speaker emulation. You can also turn off Room Designer to not use any emulations of virtual acoustic spaces (which I think is what an anechoic chamber would sound like). 

post #581 of 850

I've changed my mind about foorbar it sounds excellent now that I've changed the sound output setting. Really being rocked by dolby headphone. Man these LCD-2's kick butt, so much oohmff. :)

post #582 of 850
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique View Post

 

I don't understand the question--can you elaborate? The whole point of any crossfeed or HRTF/room emulation products is to create the illusion of loudspeakers in front of you while using headphones, so what would be "headphone specific settings/defaults"?  

 

If you don't want to emulate any specific type of loudspeakers and want basically the most neutral setting, then use the "Flat" preset for the speaker emulation. You can also turn off Room Designer to not use any emulations of virtual acoustic spaces (which I think is what an anechoic chamber would sound like). 

 

Well, the illusion is there, pretty good, but it emulates speakers. I was wondering more towards improve the soundstage, move it to the front etc. but more close to the headphone sound, not emulate speaker sound. For ex. the surround plugin is nice.

post #583 of 850

If you want the sound to 'move to the front', bring the nearfield speaker distance closer.

 

You must calibrate the HTRF section of Isone for best effect. Isone is designed to emulate nearfield speakers.

You really must understand basic room acoustics to use it properly and know what each setting does.

 

I can never go back to the laterisation of headphones (the 'two blob' effect of headphones) for music listening after using and calibrating Isone.


Edited by chinesekiwi - 5/22/12 at 1:38am
post #584 of 850

Normally I just use use Isone at home where I can lay back, relax, and enjoy the music but I tried using isone at work the other day.  I listen to music a lot of the time at work and I normally just listen from Pandora One or my Cowon D2+ which I can't apply Isone to but I put foobar and Isone on my workstation and played music from my D2+ via USB.  It didn't go very well...

 

Mostly because Isone is too good.  My brain did not get along with the realistic positioning not changing as I moved my head up and down, back and forth, and side to side between 3 monitors and piles of paperwork.  It made me pretty dizzy and sick to my stomach along with a nasty headache.  I probably listened for about a half hour before I realized why I felt awful and it took a few hours for the effects to completely fade away so I felt normal again.  Back to the normal crossfeed like on my UHA-4 whenever I'm not sitting very still.

 

Has anyone else experienced this?  I know I'm pretty sensitive to this kind of thing but I wonder how common it is.  I can't even listen to stereo music on most decent headphones for too long before the unnatural inter aural differences give me a headache unless I at least use some basic crossfeed.  It turns out that I have a line in the other direction that I can't cross either.  If the HRTF DSP is too good then it turns out I need head tracking unless I sit pretty still.

post #585 of 850

If you don't know how to use the plugin, just don't use it... It took me months to set it up perfectly to my ears and now I feel like walking in heaven when listening. Absolutely natural sound with balanced sound layers (that means you will definitely loose some amount of detail in order to get a proper simulation of environment around you) :-)

 

It is also good to mention that I don't like TB Isone as much as Isone Pro (previous version of this software). So I can only definitely recommend trying Isone Pro.


Edited by MHOE - 5/25/12 at 5:36am
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