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Latest News. Placebo Effect Has Physical Manifestation - Page 2

post #16 of 99
2/21/10 at 3:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyxix View Post
But if anything the LOD looks alot better than the radioshack cables. I'm not a believer of cables but I do believe after a very fast certain point, the only difference is the construction or durability and appearance of the cable that differs.
Like i said i am not going to get involved in the cable war. At least we have one thing in common we love music.
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post #17 of 99
2/21/10 at 3:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guidostrunk View Post
Like i said i am not going to get involved in the cable war. At least we have one thing in common we love music.
Amen
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post #18 of 99
2/21/10 at 3:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by koven View Post
Not really, she probably just picked the cooler looking one.

Despite the fact that she doesn't know anything about audio, if she had any brains, the logical assumption would be the "fancier/more expensive" one works better. It's still a placebo.

Next time blind fold her and you swap the cables around, if she can guess the LOD at least 9 out of 10 times, then there might be some validity.
Dude are you retarded , now your insulting my wife ( if she had any brains), get a job toolbox.
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post #19 of 99
2/21/10 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
OK. I thought placebo was a perceived change, I didn't realise it could actually manifest itself as real change.
I think you'd be surprised at the extent of placebo/nocebo's physical effects. It's very interesting. It can affect more than just processing of (real) audio signals in the brain. I wish I still had the links to the relevant head-fi discussions, but they were from back before the crash. This article is a good overview, but be warned, scepdic.com is excessively contrarian sometimes.
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post #20 of 99
2/21/10 at 3:48pm
Yea isn't this always stated? I thought this was widely known. People hear what they want to hear. If you read that silver is going to give you more detail, then by god you're going to hear more detail (hypothetically).

But yea like koven stated you're going to have to do some blind or double blind tests depending on what you're doing and record results that way.
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post #21 of 99
2/21/10 at 6:14pm
Guido's wife anecdote isn't pertinent. LODs use a fixed-voltage source from the line out, not so for the 1/8" HP-amped outs. There isn't a huge difference between them, but it wouldn't surprise me that you can tell the difference between the signals, especially since an amp down the line would exaggerate these differences.
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post #22 of 99
2/21/10 at 8:34pm
Thread Starter 
Perhaps we could discuss the original post instead of Mrs Guido's taste in exotic cables?
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post #23 of 99
2/21/10 at 10:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
What would be an interesting test would be to have believers listen to something like a coathanger that has been soaked in saltwater for a month and then put it into a garden hose and tell them that it's some cryo 99.9999999999999 pure silver wire bathed in the tears of a virgin Tibetan monk that costs $30,000. Then record their impressions. They'd proably get a placebo high thinking that they were listening to something special.

If you could get orgasmic reviews from crap in a garden hose, I think it would disprove the possibility that the other stuff sounds good, too. The implicatuon would be that the sound depends entirely on expectation.
Has anyone ever tested the opposite of this effect.

If you totally convinced somebody that their cables are not as good as they thought they were, does the placebo effect cause them to perceive a reduced sound quality?

I guess in this case the average human male ego could work against this happening to a certain degree, as it would involve coming to terms with being wrong in the first instance.
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post #24 of 99
2/21/10 at 10:49pm
It's a form of nocebo, and it can manifest in any placebo case. Someone on sugar pills might have a relapse or become nervous when told the pills are fake or if the sugar pills are no longer being ingested.
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post #25 of 99
2/21/10 at 10:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by haloxt View Post
It's a form of nocebo, and it can manifest in any placebo case. Someone on sugar pills might have a relapse or become nervous when told the pills are fake or if the sugar pills are no longer being ingested.

has there been a documented case of this on head Fi for example?

IMO A significant number of people that are experiencing a possible audio placebo effect seem to get very passionate when pushed into a corner with robust scientific argument, almost irrationally so. Its as if coming to terms with possibly being wrong is working at a very deep emotional level.
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post #26 of 99
2/22/10 at 4:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
You tell me, I don't know the answer.

You are saying it is not possible for ears to physically reconfigure themselves, this is a very rational thing to believe.

But the analysis I quoted says placebo in the medical sense has been statistically proven to cause measurable physical changes in some patients condition.

So what are the implication of this for placebo effect in Hi Fi?

That the definition of Placebo effect is different for medicine and music? If true then this is an important finding for us is it not?

And if the definition of placebo for medicine and music are one and the same thing, then as long as these pro cable guys are believing there is a change and they are enjoying their music more because of it then so be it. In the end music is interpreted in our brain right? So even if there is no physical difference in the properties of the cables it doesn't matter.

The person with the best Hi Fi is the person who is enjoying their music the most.

I guess I don't understand your point. Are you arguing that if Person A who believes in cables enjoys their music more with fancy pants cable A more than cheap generic cable B, that Person B who doesn't believe in cables can't enjoy the music just as much with either cable?

I don't think many here have an issue with somebody buying and enjoying their fancy pants cable, it is your money after all. But these cables are, more often than not, easily upwards of one hundred dollars and for people to run around push them onto their unsuspecting peers to buy them when their effects have not, to my knowledge, been born out by empirical data is quite frustrating to say the least. I don't know about you, but my disposable income is not unlimited and I for one who be very upset if I were sold a very expensive copper wonder cable that can not be shown (with anything other than unreliable anecdotes) to perform better than a run of the mill copper cable.
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post #27 of 99
2/22/10 at 5:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by haloxt View Post
It's a form of nocebo, and it can manifest in any placebo case. Someone on sugar pills might have a relapse or become nervous when told the pills are fake or if the sugar pills are no longer being ingested.
Actually, once *cebo has taken effect, telling the person that it was a *cebo typically doesn't eliminate the effects of the *cebo. AFAIK, *cebo does however tend to wear off over time (a few months). That goes a long, long way to explaining FOTM in my eyes.
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post #28 of 99
2/22/10 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesasone View Post
I guess I don't understand your point. Are you arguing that if Person A who believes in cables enjoys their music more with fancy pants cable A more than cheap generic cable B
Yes this is pretty much standard Placebo effect is it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mesasone View Post
that Person B who doesn't believe in cables can't enjoy the music just as much with either cable?
I'm sure they can both enjoy the music.

But in your example, person A has received a perceived improvement in their audio experience with their new 'fancy pants' cable, and person B hasn't.

By trying to present a rational argument that cables don't make any difference, to someone that profoundly believes they do, one could be being perceived by this person (even at a subconscious level) as trying to take the enhanced enjoyment they experienced away from them (like taking the proverbial Candy from the baby). I'm just postulating here, but from what I have seen on these forums anyway, it is not an unreasonable one.

I was trying to stay away from the ethical issues of selling cables, although its a very worthy subject IMO.
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post #29 of 99
2/22/10 at 9:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
Actually, once *cebo has taken effect, telling the person that it was a *cebo typically doesn't eliminate the effects of the *cebo. AFAIK, *cebo does however tend to wear off over time (a few months). That goes a long, long way to explaining FOTM in my eyes.
Sorry I'm an old fart over 35 years old. Could you please explain the meaning of 'AFAIK' and 'FOTM' and please bear in mind anachronisms like myself if you use abbreviations again.

Thanks in advance :-)
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post #30 of 99
2/22/10 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
has there been a documented case of this on head Fi for example?

IMO A significant number of people that are experiencing a possible audio placebo effect seem to get very passionate when pushed into a corner with robust scientific argument, almost irrationally so. Its as if coming to terms with possibly being wrong is working at a very deep emotional level.
Shark_Jump, whenever something someone says causes a cable believer to feel self-doubt about his cable beliefs, or if he can't enjoy "stock" cables as he otherwise would, is an example of nocebo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
Actually, once *cebo has taken effect, telling the person that it was a *cebo typically doesn't eliminate the effects of the *cebo. AFAIK, *cebo does however tend to wear off over time (a few months). That goes a long, long way to explaining FOTM in my eyes.
Everyone has a different reaction, and under different circumstances the same person will have different reactions, anything is possible because humans are unpredictable. You can say nocebo doesn't typically eliminate the effects of placebo, but I never said it was always true or a general rule, just that it CAN happen, so we aren't really disagreeing.
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