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Woo Wes or BHSE - Page 3

post #31 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asr View Post
155 watts does not go out of the BHSE chassis, as you inaccurately claim (whatever that means anyway, as "watts" are a measurement of power and not thermal energy or temperature). Some of the power the BHSE pulls from the wall goes directly towards driving the headphones. But of course not every amp is 100% efficient so some of that power has to be released as heat.

A larger chassis would achieve absolutely nothing except make the amp heavier and bigger. More internal space would help what exactly? You failed to note in your post that the BHSE amp and power supply are both completely ventilated on both their top and bottom panels, and that the amp has two large heatsinks, one on each side. If the amp wasn't ventilated, of course it would make sense for a larger chassis to have been used, but it's completely ventilated, so your point is moot. The fact that the amp does get hot means nothing - the entire chassis is designed to allow complete dissipation of the heat and the parts that get hot are all thick aluminum. Also, while you might think the amp gets "exceedingly hot," I'm sure that Justin thoroughly tested the amp for 100% reliability before he started putting down the finishing touches on the prototype, because what sort of amp designer wouldn't? (Mikhail at Singlepower aside, of course.)
I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive, as my post was not meant to be personal in any way


Given these amps are Class A, it is not inappropriate to speak of their total power draw as heat output. I'd be willing to wager that both amps are about 10% efficient There is no problem using watts when speaking of heat output from electronics - it is common practice, and almost never do you hear about the heat output of electronics in the form of calories, joules, or btu's.

I also don't think I said a larger volume chassis would make a difference - if I did, I apologize. What I meant to say (and am pretty sure I did say) was that the WES definitely remains a LOT cooler, and this is possibly due to the fact that it has a more MASSIVE chassis. More aluminum will indeed be a more affective heatsink. Surely you know that?

I am well aware of what holes are, and what heatsink fins look like Also, only a nincompoop would think that a case would not be designed to dissipate heat.... However, complete ventilation does not equate to effective cooling, when such large quantities of heat are produced! Natural convection seems to be not enough to cool the BHSE to the same degree as the WES. Note that I also never mentioned that the BHSE got TOO hot, nor did I mention its heat was in any way dangerous! I simply noted that the amp got hot.

The fact of the matter is, I have TOUCHED these amps after a few hours of use. The BHSE was very unpleasant to the touch, the Woo was barely warm. I am not claiming to do this from a strictly theoretical perspective. Nor I am not bashing any designers. They simply have different temperatures - it seems an odd subject for debate
post #32 of 75
I've only heard most of these amps at meets (canjam) and since that's the only type of impression you're likely to get in this thread I guess I'll contribute my opinion for what it's worth:

I heard the O2 out of the BHSE, WES, ES1, ES2, and Frank Cooter's amp at CanJam. From what I heard in my time with these amps, the BHSE and Frank's amp were obviously superior. They were the top rigs of the show for me, along with a R10 rig and an Omega rig. I can't say how they were different as I don't really remember anymore and I never bothered to write down my impressions from CanJam. I remember being completely blown away by the O2 out of the BHSE/Frank's amp though. Once I heard those rigs, I had to get the O2. Those other rigs were really great as well though. I'm pretty sure the WES wasn't running at full power at CanJam, so that could play a part in my impressions. I run my O2 out of the 717 right now and wouldn't even really consider the ES1/ES2/A10/WES as a substitute or upgrade (taking price into account obviously). I need to spend more time with the exstata, have never heard a KGSS, and am interested in a Blue Hawaii of any variation.
post #33 of 75
The BHSE chassis does become very warm.

I haven't found the volume knob to be hot, though, and I have very sensitive fingertips. Other people can hold hot pizza slices and eat while I can't touch them at all, so I either wait or use utensils. Ouch! Hot, it hurts! I can't hold hot tea cups either, for hot beverages I need to use mugs with handles. I can't help it. Oh, well, my fingertips are just sensitive, I guess.

I recall the Raptor I used to own having a hot volume knob. Now that was hot hot hot, and quite uncomfortable to touch. Not a good thing. I would have to make adjustments very quickly, keeping finger contact to a minimum. In and out, fast, using quick Raptor-like pecking movements.

I never keep the BHSE on overnight or unattended, so the longest I've had it running continuously is about 12 hours. No problems at all in seven months of ownership.

I think different tubes make some difference. Given the different sources we use, the different tubes and other associated gear, potential synergy effects and meet listening conditions, it's difficult to have an assessment of these two amps.

Besides the BHSE, I also have an ES1 and Aristaeus. I think the BHSE is significantly better, most notably in details, clarity and transparency. Either the ES1 or Aristaeus may present a warmer, more forgiving type of sound that can be very pleasant and "musical." This can work well with many headphones, but IMO is not as good with the O2mk1 or O2mk2. The O2's are really at their best driven by the BHSE, with something like the Mullard xf2 EL34.
post #34 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asr View Post
155 watts does not go out of the BHSE chassis, as you inaccurately claim (whatever that means anyway, as "watts" are a measurement of power and not thermal energy or temperature). Some of the power the BHSE pulls from the wall goes directly towards driving the headphones. But of course not every amp is 100% efficient so some of that power has to be released as heat.

A larger chassis would achieve absolutely nothing except make the amp heavier and bigger. More internal space would help what exactly? You failed to note in your post that the BHSE amp and power supply are both completely ventilated on both their top and bottom panels, and that the amp has two large heatsinks, one on each side. If the amp wasn't ventilated, of course it would make sense for a larger chassis to have been used, but it's completely ventilated, so your point is moot. The fact that the amp does get hot means nothing - the entire chassis is designed to allow complete dissipation of the heat and the parts that get hot are all thick aluminum. Also, while you might think the amp gets "exceedingly hot," I'm sure that Justin thoroughly tested the amp for 100% reliability before he started putting down the finishing touches on the prototype, because what sort of amp designer wouldn't? (Mikhail at Singlepower aside, of course.)
Are you ok there? El_Doug’s comment was a simple observation buddy, lay of the angry pills
post #35 of 75
Interesting comments about heat dissipation and size. I hadn't realised that the WES was significantly bigger than the BHSE. I had been ignoring the stated dimensions and just assuming they were much the same size and weight. Photos are so limited compared to seeing the products in real life.

El_Doug, the KGSS is not on my short list. It may be fit-and-forget in one sense, but for me it would be fit-and-fret-that-I-should-have-got-the-better-model. It also has separate volume controls, which I know I would hate.

Okay, back to the BHSE/WES and final question: Do they lose much if using single-ended interconnects, compared to balanced? (My Nagra CDP prefers SE).
post #36 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing View Post
The top of the current BHSE list has been waiting over 18 months. That doesn't predict the wait if you joined now, but it probably is a substantial amount of time.
Ya that is possible, but most who bought it feels it's worth the wait....
post #37 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
i've heard the WES 3 different times - with the O, O2, and O2mkii. each time i thought it sounded very good but that was about it. i have listened to the BHSE only once at a meet with an O2 and i also heard a DIY BHSE with an O2mkii. both times, i was very impressed - there was a definite wow factor. but i would choose neither. the WES didn't impress me enough for the price and the availability of the BHSE is too uncertain.
Thanks for the thought. For the WES that you heard, were they production version? Would appreciate if you could describe the area of biggest difference between the 2 amps.
post #38 of 75
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=Asr;6401404]I did not say that I prefer the BHSE over the WES and my post made no such implication either. I said only that the BHSE might make more sense for an OII.

Ok thanks for the clarification.
post #39 of 75

Fun decision to ponder

I have not heard the BHSE so I cannot compare the two. But I have some observations that might help. I have had my maxed out WES for about 6 weeks now (with O2mkii) and I can say a few things about the WES. There is a long break-in time. I have about 75-80 hours on it and I can tell it is still moving up the different performance plateaus. It is becoming very ‘liquid’ and the soundstage is amazing. Bass has slam and great fullness (hard to do in my experience). It was a bit edgy and uninvolving at first, but that ha all gone. Each time I turn it on I can hear it sound more coherent (not having a better way to describe the improvements). What I can say even now is that I find it very interconnect and source reveling. My main source is a PSAudio PWT and PWD also about 6 weeks old. I have used it with a Marantz 8001 and a Mark Levinson 390S CD player. I have had the 390S doe about 10 years and it is a great CD player. I have never heard it sound better than on the WES/O2mkii even now. That says a lot. I have heard that machine on a lot of very good systems. That said the PS Audio is not a subtle improvement. Same for cables. I use Nordost and Audioquest. Each have their strengths and weaknesses.

My advice is to look at the front end of this system carefully. You may ‘buy and forget’ the amp/phones, but you may find yourself upgrading your sources and cables as you start hearing some gaps.

Final note – I have not had any dealings with HeadAmp so I cannot compare support. But I can say that Jack and co. are fantastic to do business with. I would think that is a major concern for you as well given the distances involved.

My guess is that you will love either system. Maybe it is the ascetics of the amp (the WES sure makes a statement when you see it live) and the vibe you get from the company that will make the decision for you?

HAVE FUN
post #40 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Doug
I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive, as my post was not meant to be personal in any way.
Your perception (or anyone else's) of my previous post being "defensive" or "angry" is inaccurate. Nothing personal was taken and none was meant either. To help explain, my posting style on Head-Fi has always been very direct, pointed, and literal which in the past has led some people to mistakenly assume that I am bashing someone (or something) when that has never been the case.
post #41 of 75
First off, the Blue Hawaii amps were not designed for any one headphone in mind, all claims of that are just pure fabrication. The design brief was quite simple, make an amp that isn't bothered by the load presented by the transducers and is as close to wire-with-gain as is possible. Most amps aren't designed from this standpoint (it wouldn't make any commercial sense) but some do make a better match with some headphones since their collective strengths/weaknesses match. I don't think the HEV90 circuit was matched to the HE90 in any way but the choice of parts used in the amp was certainly a factor or Sennheiser are just really, really stingy...

As for the question at hand, my BHSE is still on order and I haven't heard the WES yet but I do know the circuit well and my ES-X will have a rather similar sound signature (if a bit different, more pure given that it is mostly DC coupled). That Blue Hawaii in Singapore is my old amp and I've built a replacement Blue Hawaii which is far more powerful (similar to the BHSE) so I know what a BH sounds like. I've also owned a Stax SRM-T2 so there is another reference point.

If you want the amp to not be factor in the sound and just let what you feed it right through then the BHSE is for you. The response is ruler flat and the amp has enough power to bring out the treble and bass of the SR-007 in force. It also works well with other Stax headphones, the SR-Sigma is simply transformed with it. The Stax SRM-T2 is very similar both in basic circuit design (even though the BH was designed without Dr. Gilmore ever seeing a T2 or the schematic for that matter, he didn't get a chance until August last year when I sent him mine) and sound. The T2 is a just a tad softer and the midrange a bit too prominent for my tastes.

Now with the Woo WES I can comment on the design and how that will always affect the sound. The WES (and the Single Power ES amps if we look past the dangerous build) will not get the same immunity from the load presented given the way the output stage is designed. Plate resistors (in what ever form they may be) will never be a match for a full blown constant current source but this isn't bad in a way if you prefer a more euphonic take on the sound. Another factor are all the caps inside the amp since the only good cap is no capacitor at all if you want ultimate transparency.

I have my BH and ES-X amps (fully rebuilt Single Power ES-1) both connected to the same source and I prefer my BH even if the ES-X is very, very good. The BH simply gets me closer to what the source is feeding them and truly lets the SR-007 shine.
post #42 of 75
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the comments. It is interesting to note that some of the very experienced members have gone the BHSE route. Wonder if this is a case of the BHSE being offered first ahead of the WES or for other reasons...
post #43 of 75
Thread Starter 
Interesting to note that some of your comment about the WES being very revealing of upstream equipments is very similar with Spritzer's observation about the BHSE. Maybe both have more in common than differences?

And I do agree....the WES looks sweet..!
post #44 of 75
Both amps will be very revealing but there is simply no way an AC coupled amp can beat a DC coupled design when it comes to transparency, no matter how outrageously priced the coupling caps are. Now whether you like the extra transparency is a whole other matter...

As for why I chose the BHSE, I had a BH so it was the logical step to order a BHSE. I will probably build a WES at some point even though I don't really need any more ESP amps...
post #45 of 75
sprit - for the sake of information wise and a dumb guide for stats amps, how would you ranks those stats amp in terms of sq overall ? I'm asking this question to you because you're among the stats guru who happens to hear it all.
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