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post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycalgary View Post
Sorry you feel snubbed I buy enough things from China like we all do. If China puts out a great headphone I may buy it.There still is a reason why top headphones like HD800,T1 are made in Germany. Kinda like how the Swiss are known for watches etc. How many great company's are gone now or are just a shell of a great company thanks to the cheap slave labor costs of China?
What about all of those Chinese DAC's and Amps. Like Audio Gd and etc. If they produce so many nice DAC's and Amps in China why can't they produce a nice headphone?

If you think the build quality of a Reference 7 DAC is bad I would like to know what you think is great?
post #32 of 43
The average cost in production is about 0.60$/h in China. Workers are "trained-on-the-job" for a few weeks at best. Somebody has posted images of an usual OEM - that's "Made in China".

The average cost in Germany is 50$/h, but what you get is a trained (several years, usually within the company as well as on "technical colleges") craftsman ("Facharbeiter"), specialized on mechatronics, industrial electronics, tool-making or NC-machining...
They're often unchallenged in their daily routine, but whenever new technology is implemented, new processes are established and problems occur they know what they're doing, they use the same "technical vocabulary" to work with engineers and they know "their" production better than most engineers in R&D or QC.
That's why many German companies have established "international production networks" - parent plants in Germany supervise new and challenging production and once it works, it's outsourced to plants in low-wage countries, creating the illusion of "Made in Germany"-craftmanship and quality.

Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic have a very well-experienced workforce, many employees work there in the 2nd or even 3rd generation, many "Facharbeiter" have more than 20 or 30 years of experience and are usually well-respected - even among engineers.

This is what "Made in Germany" is about - not the location, not patriotism but standards in education, social and safety - it has absolutely nothing to do with the usual "make it where it's cheap"-strategy forced by the very same people who ruined the financial system...

That's why there are only a few hundred deadly occupational accidents in Germany and over 100,000 (offical - without longterm effects on health!) in China, that's why even tiny amounts of toxic waste have to be taken care of, instead of throwing them into the river, that's why the pay is 10-100x better, to consume German, American or Japanese products - hopefully all manufactured under comparable high standards!

Denon is a Japanese (about 25$/h) company manufacturing (or is it an OEM?) in China to maximize profit even on their very expensive flagship-headphones. Maybe crucial components are sourced from Japanese suppliers or Denon itself, but usually it's a good indicator for cost-cutting at any cost.

Both, Beyerdynamic and Sennheiser sell overpriced chinese crap as well (jsut compare the build quality of a HD595 with an older HD560) but T1 and HD800 are not among them, these are professional-grade products manufactured within their HQ and the very same suppliers as their other professional equipment (microphones etc.) they're famous for.
post #33 of 43

???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamaster View Post
Is there fees on top of that? I mean when the headphone arrive at my hand I "may" end up pay colse to 1000 USD?
It was a straight purchase, the price plus the obligatory sales tax. Not a bad price indeed!
post #34 of 43
Thanks for the link to Planet of Sound, MH. Never knew they existed!
post #35 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycalgary View Post
Sorry you feel snubbed I buy enough things from China like we all do. If China puts out a great headphone I may buy it.There still is a reason why top headphones like HD800,T1 are made in Germany. Kinda like how the Swiss are known for watches etc. How many great company's are gone now or are just a shell of a great company thanks to the cheap slave labor costs of China?
I wouldn't say that, as an above poster mentioned, some of the most highly regarded DACs and amps out there are made in China (Audio-GD being one of the first that comes to my head, I know multiple people who hail the Ref 1 as being the best DAC they've heard up to $6000+), and I've yet to see a Chinese DAC/amp that has poor build quality.

I wouldn't even say the Denons have poor build quality, and I certainly wouldn't say they have bad SQ. Yes, HD800 and T1 come from Germany, but D7000 are also a top headphone if you aren't looking for something ridiculously analytical. As for the build quality, they feel a little loose yes, but outside of having to initially tighten 2 screws, it wasn't bad.

If they were a bit more careful to tighten screws properly I don't think anyone would be saying the build quality is poor.
post #36 of 43

No problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palpatine View Post
Thanks for the link to Planet of Sound, MH. Never knew they existed!
They are also really good to deal with and great customer service!
post #37 of 43
And how's the build quality of HD800 any good when its flaking off?

Not to mention, why is it that HD800 almost universally loses when compared to Denon 7000, HE-5 (both made in China)?
post #38 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgl View Post
The average cost in production is about 0.60$/h in China. Workers are "trained-on-the-job" for a few weeks at best. Somebody has posted images of an usual OEM - that's "Made in China".

The average cost in Germany is 50$/h, but what you get is a trained (several years, usually within the company as well as on "technical colleges") craftsman ("Facharbeiter"), specialized on mechatronics, industrial electronics, tool-making or NC-machining...
They're often unchallenged in their daily routine, but whenever new technology is implemented, new processes are established and problems occur they know what they're doing, they use the same "technical vocabulary" to work with engineers and they know "their" production better than most engineers in R&D or QC.
That's why many German companies have established "international production networks" - parent plants in Germany supervise new and challenging production and once it works, it's outsourced to plants in low-wage countries, creating the illusion of "Made in Germany"-craftmanship and quality.

Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic have a very well-experienced workforce, many employees work there in the 2nd or even 3rd generation, many "Facharbeiter" have more than 20 or 30 years of experience and are usually well-respected - even among engineers.

This is what "Made in Germany" is about - not the location, not patriotism but standards in education, social and safety - it has absolutely nothing to do with the usual "make it where it's cheap"-strategy forced by the very same people who ruined the financial system...

That's why there are only a few hundred deadly occupational accidents in Germany and over 100,000 (offical - without longterm effects on health!) in China, that's why even tiny amounts of toxic waste have to be taken care of, instead of throwing them into the river, that's why the pay is 10-100x better, to consume German, American or Japanese products - hopefully all manufactured under comparable high standards!

Denon is a Japanese (about 25$/h) company manufacturing (or is it an OEM?) in China to maximize profit even on their very expensive flagship-headphones. Maybe crucial components are sourced from Japanese suppliers or Denon itself, but usually it's a good indicator for cost-cutting at any cost.

Both, Beyerdynamic and Sennheiser sell overpriced chinese crap as well (jsut compare the build quality of a HD595 with an older HD560) but T1 and HD800 are not among them, these are professional-grade products manufactured within their HQ and the very same suppliers as their other professional equipment (microphones etc.) they're famous for.
German exports fell by 19% in 2009 making china the largest exporter in the world. German economy was flat in the last quarter of 2009 while china reduced lending to "cool down" its economy.

In other words, wake up and smell the ginseng. lol
post #39 of 43
@ Georgl, of course I'm aware of the facts. I just get sick of people using "Made in China" as a derogatory term. I read several instances of this in various audio press sources as well as on here in the last month. Wages are a lot lower here and indeed working conditions are bad in some places, but you can't say that the average Chinese person is a "slave laborer." O

If you are going on the "social conscience" angle, Maybe you can consider that it's better to offer some poor people in Asia a living wage than to pay a Westerner who is already in the top 5% of income in the whole world, $60,000 to sit all day gluing plastic parts together. Would you rather people in developing countries don't have jobs at all? Your view that everybody in the world should be making as much money as American or German workers is absurd. That's not how the world economy works, and you can see this as industrial jobs move to Asia.
post #40 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpOrMonkey View Post
What about all of those Chinese DAC's and Amps. Like Audio Gd and etc. If they produce so many nice DAC's and Amps in China why can't they produce a nice headphone?

Hifiman HE5 isnt great headphones from china?
post #41 of 43
I sometimes I regard the country as a deciding factor of my purchases. You can try and be as politically correct as you want to be. French wine, Colombian coffee, Cuban cigars etc. I am impressed by some of the stuff that comes out of China. A lot of it is not designed there but is made there because of cheap labor. Quality control can suffer and the people may be less skilled.
post #42 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bína View Post
Hifiman HE5 isnt great headphones from china?
It was a rhetorical question. The person he was responding to was saying something about poorly made headphones from China, so he pointed out that China makes great DACs and amps, so therefore he's sure they can make good headphones as well (which they do).
post #43 of 43

Just found this thread again and noticed I haven*t answered important questions, so if anybody cares:

 

 

Quote:

 

but you can't say that the average Chinese person is a "slave laborer."

 

 Not everybody but the "average" Chinese is in fact a slave laborer for the western consumers and worldwide upper-class.

 

Quote:

  Maybe you can consider that it's better to offer some poor people in Asia a living wage than to pay a Westerner who is already in the top 5% of income in the whole world, $60,000 to sit all day gluing plastic parts together.

 German manufacturers usually don*t pay someone to "glue plastic parts together", they started automation a century ago - it creates jobs in a lower quantity but higher quality (those who develop and service the machines) - as long as the labor is cheap, there is little need to actually advance/automate production. Mercedes for example uses automated windshield-assembly since over twenty years in Germany but used manual work in their US-american factory until very recently - why? Because the robot-cell (with laser inline measuring system) needed maintenance by a craftsman, a "Industrieelektroniker" - have you seen one of those in Alabama? No, instead they used manual work with half the wage and we had to replace many windshields because of noises at Autobahn-speed...

 

We need our middle-class income to consume products, products we produce/sell/service, otherwise our economy collapses. When you pay 1000$ for a Denon D7000 you don*t actually support the workers in China making it, they see only 1-5$ from it, the majority is given to the Denon-shareholders by the huge margin and the upper-class in management of Denon Japan and the management of the Chinese OEM which manufactures it. They propably earn over 100k$ a year, more than they can spend on consume, that*s why the invest it in the stock-market (and not back into real economy) - while the worker who manufactured the D7000 barely can pay for a 50$-earplug. That*s why the poorer become poorer and the rich become richer. When we would stop to use slave-wages and would only consume products manufactured with our very own standards, the Chinese would slowly be able to catch up in technology (till then, they would compete with markets with their standards) until they reach the very same standards like we developed over the last centures, they would not only manufacture our products but also consume them (I*m not talking about the less than 10% upper-class consuming right now while puishing billions of consumer-goods into our markets) - good for everyone and not absurd at all but necessary to finally stabilize our world economy. We don*t "give" them jobs by letting them work in factory for our toys, headphones (they*re not able to afford) -first, they have to (re-)start to work for themselves...  Right now we*re re-creating a tiny upper-class all over the world and a huge, poor workforce - just like Europeans did for centuries - didn*t work very well...
 

 

 

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