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Whatever happened to Graphic Equalisers in Hi Fi? - Page 3

post #31 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilency View Post
Most people around here rather choose components until they find the perfect match and that is fun and great if you have the money.
A lot of people around here are also ardent followers of Hi Fi fashion.

They used to be quite popular even amongst Hi Fi crowd. Have some fundamental physical properties of audio changed in the last 20 years that Ive missed?
post #32 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtruitt View Post
The point is these other parts of the chain shouldnt be an EQ, are not easily or cheaply changable (transducer, room, ears, source material) and an EQ is a quick, flexible way to tweek the sound to fit your tastes, or change the EQ for a specific speaker or HP you have - and, if you dont want it you simply click a button and you are bypassed.


Many find out in the end that even the metal in your power cord plug can be changed out to alter the sound signature. No, I'm not crazy! If I am crazy then a whole group of us have mass hysteria. The truth is all and every single piece is an EQ part of the whole system. This is just a strange fact of life that everything has color. Everything. Everything has an EQ signature including every single different piece of source material. The hype is that stuff is clear but it never ever truly is. EQ just gets us even further from the truth in headphones.
The perfect speaker system would be part of five systems which are set up different in every room. One for rock. One for classical. One for jazz. One for Blues. One for vocals.
Each set up would be beyond EQ as you are using the natural plus and minus of the system to maximize the sound experience.
post #33 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post
Everything. Everything has an EQ signature including every single different piece of source material. The hype is that stuff is clear but it never ever truly is. EQ just gets us even further from the truth in headphones.
The perfect speaker system would be part of five systems which are set up different in every room. One for rock. One for classical. One for jazz. One for Blues. One for vocals.
Each set up would be beyond EQ as you are using the natural plus and minus of the system to maximize the sound experience.

I'm a bit confused here, all your arguments appear to me to be a reason for having an EQ, but then you say it gets us further from the truth.

You say, 'Everything has an EQ signature including every single different piece of source material'.

Totally agree.

But isn't this also a prime reason for EQ? So you can correct things back to what they should be.

What is the truth? I say its what ever sounds good to you. If want to get eq control over your phones or speakers by having 5 rooms or switching interconnects around thats fine by me.

And 'Each set up would be beyond EQ as you are using the natural plus and minus of the system '. What do you mean by 'Beyond EQ'? and what is the 'natural plus and minus of the system' mean? You've lost me here. Do you me the natural sound of the capacitors or the flat EQ that comes out the system (Which means its NOT flat by the time it gets in your ears).
post #34 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilency View Post
If you are going to use an equalizer, a parametric one gives you better control.
Most people around here rather choose components until they find the perfect match and that is fun and great if you have the money. Or you can correct (if needed) frequencies that are to high. It is better to decrease than to increase. And remember it wont make a Beyerdynamic T1 out of a cheap earbud.
I am not being fictitious here: they help, to an extent, but won't convert iron into gold.
Some parametric equalizers allow you to correct for irregularities in the room by using a microphone to automatically adjust its settings. The cheapest one I know is the Behringer DEQ2496.
Without over-analyzing things, I have always agreed about parametric equalizers being superior. In my experience, software-based graphic equalizers are generally much worse than the hardware-based ones though.

But if you want to over-analyze things,

Speaker and room correction software explained:

"Depending on your speaker models, you will be able to download the correction algorithm for a fee. The room correction algorithm will be based on having a laptop and microphone sent to you, and following the instructions, you will gather room audio characteristics, and send them back to PT. They write the algorithm, and you install it into the [DAC's computer] using the USB port on the P-1A's rear panel. The P-1A has 64 MB of static RAM, so there is plenty of space for complicated mathematics to do their job.

"For speaker correction, here is the scenario of how it might work. Just about every speaker on the market has at least two drivers. Two-way speakers have a tweeter and a woofer, three-way speakers have a tweeter, midrange driver, and woofer, and so on. At the crossover points between the drivers, the signal suffers phase shift. This means that, as the signal level declines at crossover, the phase is delayed. It is specified in degrees, such as 100, 900 (a quarter wavelength), or even 1800 (a half wavelength). This results in a substantial part of the signal not being time aligned with the rest of the signal, and deteriorates our "you are there" experience.

"What the P-1A might do is (I don't know for sure, since the actual technique is proprietary), knowing the phase relationships of your particular speakers, slow down the rest of the signal so that it is now in perfect alignment with the phase of the signal that has been slowed down by the crossover network in your speakers. This will provide a very big improvement in the sound. Room correction will adjust the level of various parts of the spectrum that are overemphasized or decreased as a result of the layout of your listening room."

I'm not sure either, but I believe that with this technique the DAC is set to upsample your music in a way that is unique for your exact speakers in your exact room. Sounds pretty awesome to me, and I guess the P-2A is coming out soon. Not that I will ever hear one, most likely!
post #35 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
I'm a bit confused here, all your arguments appear to me to be a reason for having an EQ, but then you say it gets us further from the truth.

You say, 'Everything has an EQ signature including every single different piece of source material'.

Totally agree.

But isn't this also a prime reason for EQ? So you can correct things back to what they should be.

What is the truth? I say its what ever sounds good to you. If want to get eq control over your phones or speakers by having 5 rooms or switching interconnects around thats fine by me.

And 'Each set up would be beyond EQ as you are using the natural plus and minus of the system '. What do you mean by 'Beyond EQ'? and what is the 'natural plus and minus of the system' mean? You've lost me here. Do you me the natural sound of the capacitors or the flat EQ that comes out the system (Which means its NOT flat by the time it gets in your ears).
In the perfect speaker system. One for each style of music. As well as matched componants for each style of music.
Different systems produce a synthetic virtural reality of a musical experience. A rock experience will be more forward. A jazz experience will have a more laid back stance. This is why rock sounds good in it's place, a stadium and jazz in a small intimate club.

No EQ can overcome these wide sound signature sweeps. Maybe some home AV room DSP can come close but it's not pure HI/FI imo. What I'm saying is the best systems I have heard seemed to reproduce some styles of music perfect. Other styles not. There is no perfect system for all types of music. Remember this is just what I feel. Someday I may hear that system. I have not yet. Each type of system has it's own way to make diferent styles of music musical. The crazy thing is even if you play rock on a great jazz system, it will be super clear, just not in a rock stance. That's the natural minus. The natural plus is for that system is to put on jazz or clasical.


There is no going back in headphones. I am under the understanding that music starts from a point source. Just like light from the sun. Things can then diffuse to their next specific place in the time/componant step phase.

The first step is the sound signature which is left by the recording process. Like snow flakes they are representations of nature and will never be repeated. Just like experiences in life. Never to be repeated again.

Mankind trys to add consistance threw reducing the variables but there are way too many. That is why each song sounds different. You stated also that every source and maybe every song sounds different? Every album is unique due to the thousands of chance random sound artifacts.

The source is pure as the software. Good medium, good hardware, now we try to get as close to that as we can and let each recording have it's good and bad points. Some recordings are more perfect than others. They are like photographs of sound time which live out their own sonic life, they have a course to complete.

Do you understand that music after being played is just filtered threw mechanical means to be played back at another time still eminating from the original source? This is why it still has the defects or character from the original time it was made. A snapshot of human life with all the character in place. That's what makes it music, as it eminates from the human being.

The LP/CD is just a way to hold it until it is replayed at another time.


Cables and all equipment add color. Color is way diferent than what EQ can change. Color is tone and frequency responce. This is also getting to the limits of our understanding of music. Mine anyway. LOL

OK, Lets talk about pace. Can an EQ change pace?

Each system is it's own sound signatue. They are very complex devices and people say that even if we built two with the exact same parts, chances are at times they still would not be exactly the same at reproducing sound. We build them and yes cables could be better for each recording. A bright cable for a dull recording, a dark cable for a bright recording.

The ongoing point here as far as headphones go is we want to be as close as we can to that source. Once the source starts to go sideways there is no way to pull it back on track.Why would we add one more filter in a sea of distortion?
The other frequencies get misplaced when EQ is done. There are no perfect systems only some with a flat responce, ones with good color and ones with bad color and every variation in between. The EQ is so close to our source that the basic unrealness ruins everything just like it started to ruin everything in the start in the studio. Somehow the whole spectrum of sound has to be replaced into the mix so we can hear the whole musical mechinism of music. That is the prime reason they use compression in addition that it sounds good on a three inch speaker in a car.


Even if our rigs add color, we like our own little fake world with pink glasses. The truth is still there as long as you are 3 inches from the source. When you distance yourself by adding filters things sound good at first. They are not real and loose the entertaining spice because they are just one more step away from reality.

Go get a simple 1/4 inch reel to reel. Get two microphones and place them ten feet apart. Record a small jazz or rock band with drum treatments and play it back with no EQ or processing and then we can talk.
post #36 of 61
am guessing because computers can EQ (in the digital domain) far better than a slidery based type, before the signal ever becomes analogue.

they are simply outdated bits of kit from the black plastic crap era for home playback purposes, and so finding a half-decent new one is pretty much impossible. not a single one on ebay i would use even with my little nad c320.
post #37 of 61
I definitely agree a parametric EQ is much better in most situations as you have more control of the freq and bandwidth and can better tune-in to a specific change you want to make.

But to the original point - it is a pretty easy equation for me - does using my EQ improve the sound of my music? When it does, I use it
post #38 of 61

True BUT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
Thats fair enough, but don't forget about those nasty room and speaker effects hurting those lovely signals before they reach your ears.
Very True, But, Over the many yrs. I have treated my listening rm with tube traps and wall units for bass and mid EQin'....This is one great benifit from A)having a dedicated music Rm. and B) Being an Older Audiophile who has "GOT" his equipment upgraded (per say) to the point where he's very happy with the sound and really only spend my $$$$ on LPs and CDs! I do save and by new Cartridges and maybe "cans" .....does this make any sence! or am I just a ramblin' older fart... I do believe in "to each his OWN" and that includes his/her sound system. so if you like eqs use them......
post #39 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9pintube View Post
Very True, But, Over the many yrs. I have treated my listening rm with tube traps and wall units for bass and mid EQin'....This is one great benifit from A)having a dedicated music Rm. and B) Being an Older Audiophile who has "GOT" his equipment upgraded (per say) to the point where he's very happy with the sound and really only spend my $$$$ on LPs and CDs! I do save and by new Cartridges and maybe "cans" .....does this make any sence! or am I just a ramblin' older fart... I do believe in "to each his OWN" and that includes his/her sound system. so if you like eqs use them......
I'm not for or against EQ, 'like' is probably the wrong word. I just want to get the best sound at my ears for the buck.

Agreed, if you have everything else in your system sorted out then eq is not necessary.

BUT, how many people are in your lucky situation?

AND, if can I throw in a curve ball here;
Even in your situation, what do you do on those bad recordings where the sound engineers ears don't appear to agree to yours? Too bright, not enough bass etc.
post #40 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post
It is specified in degrees, such as 100, 900 (a quarter wavelength), or even 1800 (a half wavelength).
I'm being pedantic here but you have one too many zero's.

e.g a quarter wavelength is 90 degrees not 900.
post #41 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by googleborg View Post
am guessing because computers can EQ (in the digital domain) far better than a slidery based type, before the signal ever becomes analogue.

they are simply outdated bits of kit from the black plastic crap era for home playback purposes, and so finding a half-decent new one is pretty much impossible. not a single one on ebay i would use even with my little nad c320.
So there are no quality parametric eq's out there suitable for home audio?

You gotta be kidding me?

BTW I found this article on equalisers by Nathan Winer.
http://www.ethanwiner.com/equalizers.html
Note it was written in 1979 when flared trousers and equalisers where fashionable in home audio. Like I said earlier I don't know what laws of physics have changed since then.
post #42 of 61
I mentioned one: the Behringer DEQ2496. Not the most expensive or loved gadget, but it works, at least for me.
post #43 of 61

Great one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
I'm not for or against EQ, 'like' is probably the wrong word. I just want to get the best sound at my ears for the buck.

Agreed, if you have everything else in your system sorted out then eq is not necessary.

BUT, how many people are in your lucky situation?

AND, if can I throw in a curve ball here;
Even in your situation, what do you do on those bad recordings where the sound engineers ears don't appear to agree to yours? Too bright, not enough bass etc.
Sharkjump, you just struck my butt out with that "CURVE" ball!!! You are 100% right when it comes to bad recordings! When "ONE" does get his/her rm. sounding Right, you will really be able(to the pt. where it ticks you off) HEAR just how bad many records/cds are recorded... BUT, more importantly You will HEAR just how frikin' great the Good recordings sound!!!! that's when you or at least I start to smile, sing,air guitar it' and my feet start tappin'.... Plus you are also right when you say I'm lucky to be in "MY" situation........ I've been hooked on (equip/recorded music) or "OUR HOBBIE" for many yrs. and I thank the "MAN" for blessin' me with the means to upgrade and enjoy so many "trends" we have gone thru!!!! everyone must remember to ENJOY their "STUFF"/MUSIC"!! thanks for you Grt. opinions......now, I got to turn my LP over......
post #44 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilency View Post
I mentioned one: the Behringer DEQ2496. Not the most expensive or loved gadget, but it works, at least for me.
That looks very functional, although perhaps not as attractive as that shiny silver Akai. Perhaps they can do a 'retro' version for me. :-)

Joking aside does it have analogue inputs? I guess its converts the analogue to digital for processing, and then back to analogue.

I use RCA's in my system (not balanced), so I would use the XLR inputs and get a RCA to XLR adaptor. I guess it would fit in my system between the pre / power amp, I would use the aux outs to my power amp. Right?
post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Jump View Post
So there are no quality parametric eq's out there suitable for home audio?

You gotta be kidding me?

BTW I found this article on equalisers by Nathan Winer.
http://www.ethanwiner.com/equalizers.html
Note it was written in 1979 when flared trousers and equalisers where fashionable in home audio. Like I said earlier I don't know what laws of physics have changed since then.
i've not been able to find any on ebay that have quality look about them, that's the extent of my research...that and my PC is my primary souce so if i really wanted to EQ i'd do it here

and honestly apart from sliding things all over the place i don't know how to use EQ :/
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