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REVIEW (in progress) - Nuforce HDP 24/96 USB-Optical 24/192 Coax DAC Preamp and Headphone Amp - Page 107

post #1591 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by derbigpr View Post

Amp on it...well,  AKG K701 is inaudible up to 40% on volume knob, then it wakes up but volume stays low and almost unchanged to 70%, then it starts going up again, and at 100% its got a decent volume with K701's, but not LOUD. This definitely doesn't have the claimed output power, no fcking way, a motherboard headphone output gets the K701's almost as loud at 100%, and ST is louder at 70% and middle gain setting, or 50% at highest gain, AND not only is it louder, it sounds better two, and like its powered with more authority.   Also,  volume knob is funny,  since at low volumes it take a lot of turning to get a volume change, but at high levels you just touch it and it changes volume like crazy.  Again, overall, nowhere near as good as the ST, I don't think its even a subjective difference or a matter of preference, its simply a night and day difference between the two devices.

This sounds exactly like the same problem I'm having with my HDP. I wonder if it's a production issue with the latest batch of HDPs. As seen earlier in my video, my RMA'd HDP needs 75% volume to drive a Grado SR225i, and I can't go beyond 3 o'clock because then there's audible floor noise. Makes it hard to believe it can drive an K702/HD800/HE-6. NuForce's own uDAC drives my Grado to louder volumes, though it does lack bass authority. The HDP I had before the RMA (which hissed even at 0%) only needed about 50% on the knob to reach the same volume. Still haven't returned it yet, but I'll inquire about it soon.

Edited by colgatetotal - 5/10/13 at 4:15pm
post #1592 of 1622

Dear derbigpr,

 

My name is Bob and I'm the Support Manager & Lead Technical Support for NuForce. Normally, we would like to be able to say "thanks for writing," but in this case it would have been nice if you had written us first before going to such lengths publicly. I'm sure we could have found a way to resolve your situation/experience with the Icon HDP. Unfortunately, our hand has now been forced to defend our product and consequently my response is likely to be less than complimentary with regards to your sense of judgment, and ultimately… your future credibility hear on Head-Fi – especially if the unit happens to be defective and we don't get the issue fixed for you. I apologize in advance, as certainly nothing personal is intended in the following.

 

[EDIT:]

The following paragraph regarding my prior work experience in audio is only being offered as a personal perspective for the express purpose of establishing the possibility that the unit the reviewer has commented on may be defective. In other words, to offer another valid point of view from someone that has not only had direct experience with the product in question, but extensive experience in all things audio. In this, I am not intending to speak so much as a representative of NuForce per se, but more as a private individual.

 

To be sure, the following comments are not intended as any form of exercise in "one-upmanship," nor is there any intent to elevate my opinion as being superior to, or more valid than, that of the reviewer's whatsoever. In essence, both the reviewer's AND my observations can be equally correct, assuming that the unit in question happens to be defective – which is what I believe to be the case. Please understand that establishing that possibility is the only purpose for any of the following commentary.

[CLOSE EDIT:]

 

First, I think it would be best if I give you a little background about myself so that everyone reading this can weigh my comments accordingly. To start, I've been a high-end audiophile for over 30 years and have had extensive audio engineering experience in both live sound and studio recording. I built and operated my own 2K sq. ft. recording studio and have invented a number of audio devices including: a special stereo microphone system, numerous loudspeaker designs using proprietary waveguide and transmission-line technology, proprietary signal processing devices, etc. In particular, For several years I owned (joint venture with an EU entity) and operated my own high-end loudspeaker manufacturing company that ultimately shipped product worldwide, with several cases of individual systems costing well over $20K. Our first year exhibiting at RMAF our designs were later heralded as one of the "best of show" on the audio Internet forums.

 

In addition, I worked for the better part of 9 years as Lead Engineering Technician at Crown International/Techron Division, directly under Crown's world-renown R&D engineer Gerald Stanley. At Crown, we developed the world's largest audio amplifiers (in excess of 40KW) that employed our own proprietary SOTA switching technology, with our primary contractor being GE Medical Systems for use in their globally distributed MRI systems. I have also worked as one of the staff Engineers In Charge (EIC) for our local WSBT-TV station. I could go on, but it would be superfluous as I think everyone gets the point by now. For the last several years I have worked for NuForce as their Support Manager, Lead Technical Support, Technical Writer, Engineering Consultant and all around "tech guy."

 

The above stated, my home system is comprised of loudspeakers of my own design, NuForce Ref-9 mono-block amplifiers and… an Icon HDP as my simple little DAC/preamp (less is more). So maybe at the end of the day the Icon HDP IS a piece of "crap," but it sounds great to me. Then again, what would I know about good sound? wink_face.gif

 

I know one thing. Human hearing is very subjective but accurate measurements and testing are not, and if the results thereof are properly interpreted, such test results correlate quite well with the perceptions of the average listener.

 

Your comment…

Quote:
I've had the HDP for a few days now, got it used for about 250$ and feel I've been ripped off like never before. What the hell is wrong with people recommending this device and claiming its great value for 450$ new? No offense, but its crap even at 250, let alone 450.

 

…seems like your observations may be just a tad bit myopic. Your own further comments might have given you pause to reflect on the possibility that something just might be amiss with the product:

Quote:
but as a device that EVERYONE seems to like, and doesn't have a single negative review about it that I've found....

 

And:

Quote:
Also, volume knob is funny, since at low volumes it take a lot of turning to get a volume change, but at high levels you just touch it and it changes volume like crazy.

 

Hmm… could it be that maybe the frick'n thing is BUSTED?!!!

Quote:
Oh its definitely not faulty, its only like a month old, that's why I got it, since it was a good price, and its not like something is wrong with it or it doesn't perform properly…

 

Just so you know, I can build 10 versions of the same product wherein each one exhibits a different response, with some versions exhibiting only slight differences from what would otherwise be considered an "ideal" response while other versions are considerably off the mark to such an extent that they would/should be considered essentially broken. Yet, each will seem to work fine from a cursory review of its basic operation. Various listeners will agree and disagree with each others' observations regarding the performance of individual units, but most will agree that those units exhibiting a greater degree of divergence from the ideal response as being inferior to the others. Nevertheless, few (if any) will suspect that the lesser performing units are actually defective.

 

Now, if I put a fancy front panel and a different logo on each of the above units such that the listeners believe each is manufactured by a different company, unit X (with the defective response) will be considered "junk" with respect to the other units and the "virtual" company that manufactured it will have its reputation suffer accordingly. The above would be all the more true if none of the test listeners had any prior experience with different versions of unit X. That product and the company that manufactures it will be "branded" without the reviewers having any idea that the unit is actually defective. Pretty obvious, eh?

 

From his experience, Armaegis suspected that it might be defective…

Quote:
I'm not even taking into account your consideration of the dac and sound quality, but your description of the volume pot and power delivery really sounds like something is dreadfully broken with the unit. I've owned the HDP on two separate occasions now, both purchased used, and the behaviour is nothing like you're describing.

 

… but then again, he had something vital that you don't – EXPERIENCE with the product.

 

So is the Icon HDP a piece of crap, or has your personal experience possibly tainted your objectivity?

 

By your own words:

Quote:
 got it used for about 250$…

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

You should know that due to the issues surrounding the mass production of consumer electronics, sometimes products are "bad out of the box." That's just the way it is and why we all offer warranties. Is it possible that the original seller made the same mistake and simply assumed the unit was inferior, so rather than return it to the factory for replacement… he just sold it to you? We don't know, and unless some qualified electronics person runs the device through a series of appropriate tests to determine proper functionality, NOBODY KNOWS. Our experience though does give us serious cause for concern that the your Icon HDP is defective. Therefore, we highly suggest that the unit be returned to our facility for testing so that you can be sure that you have been given a fair opportunity to evaluate the product.

 

Now that we've sufficiently made our case, let's not cry over spilled milk. Even though you may have gotten the short end of the stick on this deal, there are no hard feelings on our part and we want to do what we can to help you out. I'd suggest that you contact us so we can see what we can do. Just write to support@nuforce.com and tell the staff guy there "Bob sent you." As far as warranty issues go and determining how we deal with individual requests, "I'm the man" and what I say goes. Contact us at the above e-mail and you have my word that one way or the other we'll see to it that you end up with a GOOD working Icon HDP… especially if you promise to come back here to Head-Fi and are willing to share your new experience if it turns out I'm right and that the Icon HDP really DOES kick butt - when it's working correctly. Deal?

 

I'll be standing by. Thanks for your time and…

 

Take care,

Bob Smith

NuForce Support Manager


Edited by nuforce-bob - 5/15/13 at 12:00pm
post #1593 of 1622

It seems derbigpr has been reviving older HDP threads and hating in there too. 

 

p.s. Bob, you've misspelt the support email address... 

post #1594 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

Dear derbigpr,

 

My name is Bob and I'm the Support Manager & Lead Technical Support for NuForce. Normally, we would like to be able to say "thanks for writing," but in this case it would have been nice if you had written us first before going to such lengths publicly. I'm sure we could have found a way to resolve your situation/experience with the Icon HDP. Unfortunately, our hand has now been forced to defend our product and consequently my response is likely to be less than complimentary with regards to your sense of judgment, and ultimately… your future credibility hear on Head-Fi – especially if we don't get the issue fixed for you. I apologize in advance, as certainly nothing personal is intended in the following.

 

First, I think it would be best if I give you a little background about myself so that everyone reading this can weigh my comments accordingly. To start, I've been a high-end audiophile for over 30 years and have had extensive audio engineering experience in both live sound and studio recording. I built and operated my own 2K sq. ft. recording studio and have invented a number of audio devices including: a special stereo microphone system, numerous loudspeaker designs using proprietary waveguide and transmission-line technology, proprietary signal processing devices, etc. In particular, For several years I owned (joint venture with an EU entity) and operated my own high-end loudspeaker manufacturing company that ultimately shipped product worldwide, with several cases of individual systems costing well over $20K. Our first year exhibiting at RMAF our designs were later heralded as one of the "best of show" on the audio Internet forums.

 

In addition, I worked for the better part of 9 years as Lead Engineering Technician at Crown International/Techron Division, directly under Crown's world-renown R&D engineer Gerald Stanley. At Crown, we developed the world's largest audio amplifiers (in excess of 40KW) that employed our own proprietary SOTA switching technology, with our primary contractor being GE Medical Systems for use in their globally distributed MRI systems. I have also worked as one of the staff Engineers In Charge (EIC) for our local WSBT-TV station. I could go on, but it would be superfluous as I think everyone gets the point by now. For the last several years I have worked for NuForce as their Support Manager, Lead Technical Support, Technical Writer, Engineering Consultant and all around "tech guy."

 

The above stated, my home system is comprised of loudspeakers of my own design, NuForce Ref-9 mono-block amplifiers and… an Icon HDP as my simple little DAC/preamp (less is more). So maybe at the end of the day the Icon HDP IS a piece of "crap," but it sounds great to me. Then again, what would I know about good sound? wink_face.gif

 

I know one thing. Human hearing is very subjective but accurate measurements and testing are not, and if the results thereof are properly interpreted, such test results correlate quite well with the perceptions of the average listener.

 

Your comment…

 

 

 

…seems just a tad bit myopic and maybe even a little egocentric. Or, maybe the rest of the world IS wrong and you are the lone observer possessing the only pair of sufficiently accurate spectacles with which to properly see the real world? Your own further comments might have given you pause to reflect on the possibility that something just might be amiss with the product:

 

 

 

And:

 

 

 

Hmm… could it be that maybe the frick'n thing is BUSTED?!!! Nah…

 

 

 

 

I can build 10 versions of the same product wherein each one exhibits a different response, with some versions exhibiting only slight differences from what would otherwise be considered an "ideal" response while other versions are considerably off the mark to such an extent that they would/should be considered essentially broken. Yet, each will seem to work fine from a cursory review of its basic operation. Various listeners will agree and disagree with each others' observations regarding the performance of individual units, but most will agree that those units exhibiting a greater degree of divergence from the ideal response as being inferior to the others. Nevertheless, few (if any) will suspect that the lesser performing units are actually defective.

 

Now, if I put a fancy front panel and a different logo on each of the above units such that the listeners believe each is manufactured by a different company, unit X (with the defective response) will be considered "junk" with respect to the other units and the "virtual" company that manufactured it will have its reputation suffer accordingly. The above would be all the more true if none of the test listeners had any prior experience with different versions of unit X. That product and the company that manufactures it will be "branded" without the reviewers having any idea that the unit is actually defective. Pretty obvious, eh?

 

Even Armaegis had it figured out…

 

 

 

 

… but then again, he had something vital that you don't – EXPERIENCE.

 

So is the Icon HDP a piece of crap, or has your personal experience and possibly even your purchase decision tainted your objectivity?

 

By your own words…

 

 

 

 

… you may just be confessing that you made a mistake. Which is easier? To admit that you took a risk purchasing a used device and that the reason the seller was getting rid of it was because it may very well have been defective, AND as a result you cannot return it for a refund so you're "stuck" – OR to label the device as being a piece of junk and rather, your faulty purchase is the result of a flawed design of the product along with all of the many erroneous reviews & their reviewers that ultimately mislead you? Caveat Emptor.

 

I guess we can understand though. Throwing the "piece of crap wrench" into the garbage and swearing the design sucks does help a little to take the sting out of your busted knuckles, even if doing so doesn't really make a lot of sense because the wrench was defective in the first place. If it was the only wrench you ever purchased from that company, then I guess you really wouldn't know.

 

You should know though that due to the issues surrounding mass production of consumer electronics, sometimes products are "bad out of the box." That's just the way it is and why we all offer warranties. Did the original seller make the same mistake and simply assume the unit was inferior, so rather than return it to the factory for replacement… he just sold it to you? We don't know, and unless some qualified electronics person runs the device through a series of appropriate tests to determine proper functionality, NOBODY KNOWS. Dear derbigpr, unfortunately… this includes you as well.

 

Now that we've sufficiently made our case, let's not cry over spilled milk. Even though you may have gotten the short end of the stick on this deal and given us a black eye in place of yourself, no hard feelings. Instead, I'd suggest that you contact us so we can see what we can do to help you out. Just write to support@nuforce.com and tell the staff guy there "Bob sent you." As far as warranty issues go and determining how we deal with individual requests, "I'm the man" and what I say goes. Contact us at the above e-mail and you have my word that one way or the other we'll see to it that you end up with a GOOD working Icon HDP… especially if you promise to come back here to Head-Fi and are willing to "eat a little crow" if it turns out I'm right and that the Icon HDP really DOES kick butt. Deal?

 

I'll be standing by. Thanks for your time and…

 

Take care,

Bob Smith

NuForce Support Manager

 

Bob, while Im sure most here appreciate the fact that someone representing the manufacturer took the time to respond, I feel that its somewhat in bad form to have done so. The many who own the HDP and other NuForce products know the referred to poster is a troll and is just blowing smoke around the forum. You didnt need to tell us all about yourself and then defend the product. It looks unprofessional and small of NuForce. The only action NuForce should do in this situation is offer to offer the complaining customer assistance or at best warranty claim instructions and in an unbiased fashion do what can be done to make the customer happy. Going off like this in such a personal fashion should always be avoided when representing a professional business.

post #1595 of 1622

DELETED.


Edited by nuforce-bob - 5/14/13 at 11:52am
post #1596 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

Dear derbigpr,

 

My name is Bob and I'm the Support Manager & Lead Technical Support for NuForce. Normally, we would like to be able to say "thanks for writing," but in this case it would have been nice if you had written us first before going to such lengths publicly. I'm sure we could have found a way to resolve your situation/experience with the Icon HDP. Unfortunately, our hand has now been forced to defend our product and consequently my response is likely to be less than complimentary with regards to your sense of judgment, and ultimately… your future credibility hear on Head-Fi – especially if we don't get the issue fixed for you. I apologize in advance, as certainly nothing personal is intended in the following.

 

First, I think it would be best if I give you a little background about myself so that everyone reading this can weigh my comments accordingly. To start, I've been a high-end audiophile for over 30 years and have had extensive audio engineering experience in both live sound and studio recording. I built and operated my own 2K sq. ft. recording studio and have invented a number of audio devices including: a special stereo microphone system, numerous loudspeaker designs using proprietary waveguide and transmission-line technology, proprietary signal processing devices, etc. In particular, For several years I owned (joint venture with an EU entity) and operated my own high-end loudspeaker manufacturing company that ultimately shipped product worldwide, with several cases of individual systems costing well over $20K. Our first year exhibiting at RMAF our designs were later heralded as one of the "best of show" on the audio Internet forums.

 

In addition, I worked for the better part of 9 years as Lead Engineering Technician at Crown International/Techron Division, directly under Crown's world-renown R&D engineer Gerald Stanley. At Crown, we developed the world's largest audio amplifiers (in excess of 40KW) that employed our own proprietary SOTA switching technology, with our primary contractor being GE Medical Systems for use in their globally distributed MRI systems. I have also worked as one of the staff Engineers In Charge (EIC) for our local WSBT-TV station. I could go on, but it would be superfluous as I think everyone gets the point by now. For the last several years I have worked for NuForce as their Support Manager, Lead Technical Support, Technical Writer, Engineering Consultant and all around "tech guy."

 

The above stated, my home system is comprised of loudspeakers of my own design, NuForce Ref-9 mono-block amplifiers and… an Icon HDP as my simple little DAC/preamp (less is more). So maybe at the end of the day the Icon HDP IS a piece of "crap," but it sounds great to me. Then again, what would I know about good sound? wink_face.gif

 

I know one thing. Human hearing is very subjective but accurate measurements and testing are not, and if the results thereof are properly interpreted, such test results correlate quite well with the perceptions of the average listener.

 

Your comment…

 

 

 

…seems just a tad bit myopic and maybe even a little egocentric. Or, maybe the rest of the world IS wrong and you are the lone observer possessing the only pair of sufficiently accurate spectacles with which to properly see the real world? Your own further comments might have given you pause to reflect on the possibility that something just might be amiss with the product:

 

 

 

And:

 

 

 

Hmm… could it be that maybe the frick'n thing is BUSTED?!!! Nah…

 

 

 

 

I can build 10 versions of the same product wherein each one exhibits a different response, with some versions exhibiting only slight differences from what would otherwise be considered an "ideal" response while other versions are considerably off the mark to such an extent that they would/should be considered essentially broken. Yet, each will seem to work fine from a cursory review of its basic operation. Various listeners will agree and disagree with each others' observations regarding the performance of individual units, but most will agree that those units exhibiting a greater degree of divergence from the ideal response as being inferior to the others. Nevertheless, few (if any) will suspect that the lesser performing units are actually defective.

 

Now, if I put a fancy front panel and a different logo on each of the above units such that the listeners believe each is manufactured by a different company, unit X (with the defective response) will be considered "junk" with respect to the other units and the "virtual" company that manufactured it will have its reputation suffer accordingly. The above would be all the more true if none of the test listeners had any prior experience with different versions of unit X. That product and the company that manufactures it will be "branded" without the reviewers having any idea that the unit is actually defective. Pretty obvious, eh?

 

Even Armaegis had it figured out…

 

 

 

 

… but then again, he had something vital that you don't – EXPERIENCE.

 

So is the Icon HDP a piece of crap, or has your personal experience and possibly even your purchase decision tainted your objectivity?

 

By your own words…

 

 

 

 

… you may just be confessing that you made a mistake. Which is easier? To admit that you took a risk purchasing a used device and that the reason the seller was getting rid of it was because it may very well have been defective, AND as a result you cannot return it for a refund so you're "stuck" – OR to label the device as being a piece of junk and rather, your faulty purchase is the result of a flawed design of the product along with all of the many erroneous reviews & their reviewers that ultimately mislead you? Caveat Emptor.

 

I guess we can understand though. Throwing the "piece of crap wrench" into the garbage and swearing the design sucks does help a little to take the sting out of your busted knuckles, even if doing so doesn't really make a lot of sense because the wrench was defective in the first place. If it was the only wrench you ever purchased from that company, then I guess you really wouldn't know.

 

You should know though that due to the issues surrounding mass production of consumer electronics, sometimes products are "bad out of the box." That's just the way it is and why we all offer warranties. Did the original seller make the same mistake and simply assume the unit was inferior, so rather than return it to the factory for replacement… he just sold it to you? We don't know, and unless some qualified electronics person runs the device through a series of appropriate tests to determine proper functionality, NOBODY KNOWS. Dear derbigpr, unfortunately… this includes you as well.

 

Now that we've sufficiently made our case, let's not cry over spilled milk. Even though you may have gotten the short end of the stick on this deal and given us a black eye in place of yourself, no hard feelings. Instead, I'd suggest that you contact us so we can see what we can do to help you out. Just write to support@nuforce.com and tell the staff guy there "Bob sent you." As far as warranty issues go and determining how we deal with individual requests, "I'm the man" and what I say goes. Contact us at the above e-mail and you have my word that one way or the other we'll see to it that you end up with a GOOD working Icon HDP… especially if you promise to come back here to Head-Fi and are willing to "eat a little crow" if it turns out I'm right and that the Icon HDP really DOES kick butt. Deal?

 

I'll be standing by. Thanks for your time and…

 

Take care,

Bob Smith

NuForce Support Manager

 

 

Thanks for your response. My intention was clearly not to insult Nuforce as a company, engineers responsible for the development of the HDP or the people who like the device. My intention was to put out my own honest opinion of a device which highly disappointed me after having high expectations of it. I really don't know WHY you clearly got so upset about the whole thing. Is it illegal to put out a negative review? It seems so. Every time someone writes a negative review of a device on head-fi or other audio forums, especially a device made by a forum sponsor company, that person is called out as a troll, a person who is clueless, lacks experience, etc. It is an OPINION.  When I was writing the review, I was able to choose between giving the product 1 star, 2 stars, 3 stars, 4 stars or 5 stars. I gave it 2.5 stars. Does that make me a troll? I could have given it 5 stars, would that mean I'm an expert with 30 years of experience in high end audio? No.

 

Not to forget, the device is NOT broken or malfunctioning. The volume knob issue is well known, and I'm sure you are very well aware of the fact that the first 50% or so of the volume knob is virtually inaudible, and to get a comfortable volume out of the device while using a little bit demanding to power headphones such as the K701, I have to put the knob to about 2 - 2:30 o'clock position with the device being vertically placed on top of its rubber stand.  That is just a fact. Is that bad? Maybe not from a technical perspective, but from a user-friendliness point of view, yes, it is a "funny knob" as I called it, because at low volumes it takes a lot of turning for small volume changes, and at high volumes it takes only a few degrees to go from comfortable to too loud. I think the "funny knob" issue is taken a bit too seriously, it's not the main issue.  The main issue is a fact that at least in my setup with my headphones, the device performs worse than other comparable devices at a similar, or in the case of a Asus ST soundcard, much lower price.

 

I hope my issues did not take too much of your time and I'm sorry you've taken it so seriously. It's a public forum made for discussions after all, sometimes discussions get heated, that's the way it always was and always will be. If it will make everyone in this thread happier, I will delete my review of the HDP.

 

As for people calling me a troll, thank you very much, I guess I'll just delete all other of my reviews which lots of people found very helpful,agreed with, and thanked me countless times for writing them, and I'll also ignore all the conversations with large amounts of people to which I talked trough PM's, shared my experiences and helped choose their gear, which eventually they were very satisfied with.  It appears that ones opinion on head-fi is only valuable if it's positive. Mine have been positive so far, in these few years I've been visiting head-fi, I've never written a negative review of a single piece of equipment. This is my first time, and I believe last.

post #1597 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

I happen to be a big Second Amendment guy. You go messing with me and/or "my family"... and you'd better duck.

 

 

 

Wow, what can I say, you're taking this WAY too seriously. This is a forum, go to any thread on any device, and you will find posts like mine written by people who don't like a certain device.  If you'd like me to, if it would make you satisfied, I will delete every post in which I've written a bad word about the HDP, if you think that my opinion will so strongly effect other peoples opinions on this device. Sorry for wasting your time again, and I hope that this business is over, I really have better things to do in life than to argue whether my opinion on a dac/amp is legit or whether I'm trolling.  Peace.

 

 

EDIT: 

Done, all fixed up, I hope we're all happy campers now.


Edited by derbigpr - 5/14/13 at 11:16am
post #1598 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

Dear Armaegis,

 

 

 

THANKS for catching that for me!!! Of all the darn things to have a typo in. confused_face%281%29.gif
 

 

 

Hopefully he sees the error of his ways and corrects each of those instances, as doing so would be to his own benefit, as I believe I have pretty much sufficiently discredited any argument he may have. I can always do so again elsewhere... if I have to. I don't know the level of his knowledge and/or experience, or that of anybody else here for that matter, but I doubt there are many that are able to come back at me from a similar position - or have the ability to make any argument they may have equally as well. I'm an engineer AND a writer with a preponderance of experience and a high degree of success in both. Let's put it this way, if I were him... I wouldn't even try.

 

Besides, there is no reason to. He simply got "bitten" and now he's faulting the product as a way of licking his wounds. Folks often don't realize the effect they can have on others when they get loose with their lips about such things. It's my job to remind them, but not to make enemies. NuForce wants not only see to it that our products are well represented, but more importantly, we want to see customers & owners of our products be happy about their purchase. That's my job too. My MAIN job.

 

Now... if derbigper really wants war, he should first know that he's out-gunned by a wide margin and will suffer accordingly. Secondly but more importantly, he's gonna be eating $250.00 unless he decides to work with us. We can go a long way to make things right for him and see to it that he's a happy audio camper. Or else, I can...[fill in the blank] and in the end, he'll loose whatever credibility he does have.

 

This isn't meant to be any form of intimidation either. It's just that there's Natural Law and a natural course of events, and I happen to be a big Second Amendment guy. You go messing with me and/or "my family"... and you'd better duck. That's just the way it is. Especially when we know we haven't done anything wrong (i.e., make bad products). If we screw up, we'll admit it and then do whatever it takes to make things right. That's just good business. We aren't admitting any such thing in this case though. Nevertheless, we'll still do all we can to make things right - assuming that we have a willing partner in the deal. Again, that's just good business and benefits everybody involved. There are some folks though that you just can't make peace with in this world and that would rather fight than get over themselves, so I guess that's why there are wars from time to time. The choice of which it will be in this case... is now derbigpr's.

 

Thanks again and...

 

Take care,

-Bob

Wow... WAY unprofessional and I have definitely lost some respect and credibility in NuForce for allowing you to express your opinions and personal moral in a NuForce representative manner. Please do the company you work for a favor and stop now and never comment again in another forum as a professional representative for a company unless it is in a 100% unbiased, non-personal, and in a completely professional manner. Unbelievable...


Edited by ben_r_ - 5/14/13 at 11:24am
post #1599 of 1622

ben_r_,

 

 

Thanks for your input and rest assured that's what we normally do. But in this case though we already had wind of the trolling and wanted to "nip it in the bud" because many folks passing through aren't forum "insiders" and wouldn't know a given poster's background and/or reputation. When such people "get around" the WWW spreading such comments, you gotta have at least one good rebuttal that you can point back to. In this case... this is "IT." Now all we need to do is link back to this posting whenever we are contacted by someone quoting this gentleman's remarks. Believe me, we get e-mails all the time from folks commenting about forum postings and wanting to know what the deal is. A publicly posted rebuttal that is succinct to the point and accurate carries far more credibility in such instances than "make excuses" behind the scenes. While I may be a little "over the top" sometimes, that's maybe just a bit of OCD on my part. Nevertheless, as a result there remains little room for ambiguity regarding the matter, and ambiguity is often taken as license for continued nefarious actions and intent. I guess it's just a matter of the lesser of two evils.

 

As a side note, although not the same issue there are similar circumstances where often the industry view is that if a customer complains about a product for whatever reason, that the company will give that person pretty much whatever they want just to avoid any bad PR - even when it's obvious the customer is in the wrong and/or is trying to scam the company for free stuff. It's"more professional" just to appease them and move on, eating the loss and factoring it into the cost of doing business... which just forces the company to raise price.

 

In such cases everybody looses by being forced to pay those higher prices and the folks that do "play by the rules" end up becoming "chumps" for doing so. That's not just unfair - it's fundamentally immoral. At that point any warranty becomes a joke and a few unscrupulous folks get away with untold larceny while the rest get "you know what." We don't operate that way... if for no other reason than to pay honor to the honest folks that do play by the rules. That's just the right thing to do. A "professional" response? Maybe not... but it's the RIGHT one.

 

Thanks,

-Bob

post #1600 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post


the company will give that person pretty much whatever they want just to avoid any bad PR - even when it's obvious the customer is in the wrong and/or is trying to scam the company for free stuff.

 

I do like the look of that new UDH-100... wink_face.gif

 

No, seriously, I know that part was not addressed to me personally, but that was NEVER my intention.  I admit that my review reads in a way which leaves one to believe I totally hate the HDP, that's why I deleted it, and will write a new one in a few days, a more comprehensive and detailed one, which will be completely honest without a hint of exaggeration.

post #1601 of 1622

Dear derbigpr,

 

Contact us at support@nuforce.com and we'll get you a new, WORKING Icon HDP. The main thing is that you are happy with the product. I guess we all get carried away at times. You have been very accommodating and responded much sooner and with a far more positive outlook than we had anticipated from the emotion you exhibited in your original posting. Usually, when folks take such a strong position, they aren't willing to alter it - not so easily anyway. Thank you very much and rest assured we would like nothing more than to see you happy and with a working product. If your HDP is defective (which I'm certain it must be), then it should have been returned to us by the person you purchased it from to begin with. Therefore, we will gladly replace it at no charge to you.

 

In the mean time, please accept my sincere apology for coming across so strongly. I certainly meant nothing personal. In times past we've had a handful of guys that had a real axe to grind for no reason, so I was maybe a little "war weary" and overly prepared for battle. Maybe a bit of PTSD at work or something like it. All I know is that you really caught me off guard and I'm more than happy to say so and apologize to everyone that may have taken offense. You know how this hobby is... everybody has strong opinions and if you're really into it... a lot a passion too. After 30 years at it, you tend to fall prey to the same passion without even realizing it - and unfortunately, on occasion where it's not warranted. My bad... but we'll make it right - even if it has to come out of my own pocket smile.gif

 

Please write, have a great day and...

 

Take care,

-Bob

 

PS. If you'd be more interested in moving up to something like the UDH-100, there's plenty we can do to help there too. It's obvious you know what to listen FOR, so we need to get you something that you are happy to listen TO. :-)


Edited by nuforce-bob - 5/14/13 at 11:50am
post #1602 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

Dear derbigpr,

 

Contact us at support@nuforce.com and we'll get you a new, WORKING Icon HDP. The main thing is that you are happy with the product. I guess we all get carried away at times. You have been very accommodating and responded much sooner and with a far more positive outlook than we had anticipated from the emotion you exhibited in your original posting. Usually, when folks take such a strong position, they aren't willing to alter it - not so easily anyway. Thank you very much and rest assured we would like nothing more than to see you happy and with a working product. If your HDP is defective (which I'm certain it must be), then it should have been returned to us by the person you purchased it from to begin with. Therefore, we will gladly replace it at no charge to you.

 

In the mean time, please accept my sincere apology for coming across so strongly. I certainly meant nothing personal. In times past we've had a handful of guys that had a real axe to grind for no reason, so I was maybe a little "war weary" and overly prepared for battle. Maybe a bit of PTSD at work or something like it. All I know is that you really caught me off guard and I'm more than happy to say so and apologize to everyone that may have taken offense. You know how this hobby is... everybody has strong opinions and if you're really into it... a lot a passion too. After 30 years at it, you tend to fall prey to the same passion without even realizing it - and unfortunately, on occasion where it's not warranted. My bad... but we'll make it right - even if it has to come out of my own pocket smile.gif

 

Please write, have a great day and...

 

Take care,

-Bob

 

 

I'd like to apologize for my exaggerated views as well.  I also appreciate your offer, but I will respectfully decline it.

 

Take care.

post #1603 of 1622
Quote:

Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

 

Usually, when folks take such a strong position, they aren't willing to alter it - not so easily anyway.

 


Oh, no, I haven't altered my position or my opinion. I've just adjusted my "DAC" to output a "signal" at a different "bit rate". wink.gif

post #1604 of 1622

Dear derbigpr,

 

That's cool. smile.gif It's just that if you can't use it, then you're out the funds and that would be a shame. As I said, we would have/should have replaced it anyway. Besides, if you were to send it back we could test it to see if there is something wrong with it that we aren't aware of. Once in a while any mass produced product can suffer from production issues, and if they aren't caught by the QA department you can end up with a whole bunch of bad units out in the field and not know. Consider it a favor to NuForce, and maybe even a few other folks that might end up with a similar unit as yours (assuming there is something wrong due to a production issue).

 

DACs & preamps really are precision instruments, regardless of how low cost they may be. They have to process signals covering the entire dynamic range of human hearing, with the weakest signals the hardest to accurately reproduce and the easiest to get messed up. It's those same weak signals that really impart the perceived sound of the product, more so than the average-to-louder signals. It's only due to the modern marvel of automated production machinery that such a complex device can be offered at such reasonably low prices. Take you average $50 DVD player as an example. Inside is a universe of complexity, but you can purchase one for every kid in the family at Christmas and still afford to buy the turkey. There are an almost unlimited number of things that can go wrong, but the thing still seems to be working as it should. With video products it’s a lot easier to tell if something is wrong, but audio is such a subjective thing that it really can be almost impossible to know if that's the case or not – unless you already KNOW what the device is supposed to sound like.

 

Anyway, if you'd be willing to send it back so we can test it, we'll gladly pay for shipping both ways. No cost to you whatsoever, and if it is faulty, we'll send you a TESTED unit that we know is good. Then… if you still don't like it (gulp)… at least we tried. Then you can sell it again and at least be able to tell your customer that it was checked out by NuForce and all is well. Think about it and let us know. Thanks again for your time, have a great day and…

 

Take care,

-Bob


Edited by nuforce-bob - 5/14/13 at 2:08pm
post #1605 of 1622
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuforce-bob View Post

Dear derbigpr,

 

That's cool. smile.gif It's just that if you can't use it, then you're out the funds and that would be a shame. As I said, we would have/should have replaced it anyway. Besides, if you were to send it back we could test it to see if there is something wrong with it that we aren't aware of. Once in a while any mass produced product can suffer from production issues, and if they aren't caught by the QA department you can end up with a whole bunch of bad units out in the field and not know. Consider it a favor to NuForce, and maybe even a few other folks that might end up with a similar unit as yours (assuming there is something wrong due to a production issue).

 

DACs & preamps really are precision instruments, regardless of how low cost they may be. They have to process signals covering the entire dynamic range of human hearing, with the weakest signals the hardest to accurately reproduce and the easiest to get messed up. It's those same weak signals that really impart the perceived sound of the product, more so than the average-to-louder signals. It's only due to the modern marvel of automated production machinery that such a complex device can be offered at such reasonably low prices. Take you average $50 DVD player as an example. Inside is a universe of complexity, but you can purchase one for every kid in the family at Christmas and still afford to buy the turkey. There are an almost unlimited number of things that can go wrong, but the thing still seems to be working as it should. With video products it’s a lot easier to tell if something is wrong, but audio is such a subjective thing that it really can be almost impossible to know if that's the case or not – unless you already KNOW what the device is supposed to sound like.

 

Anyway, if you'd be willing to send it back so we can test it, we'll gladly pay for shipping both ways. No cost to you whatsoever, and if it is faulty, we'll send you a TESTED unit that we know is good. Then… if you still don't like it (gulp)… at least we tried. Then you can sell it again and at least be able to tell your customer that it was checked out by NuForce and all is well. Think about it and let us know. Thanks again for your time, have a great day and…

 

Take care,

-Bob

 

Thanks for your support. The simplest thing to do in my opinion is to take the device to the store where it was bought in the first place, which is in my city and takes me about half an hour to get there. There I can simply compare my own HDP to some other HDP they have in the store and see if they differ in performance. I doubt, because it doesn't sound like its broken, but if they do, then I know my unit is faulty and will decide which step to take next.  If it performs the same, then I simply don't like it, nothing else to do but to sell it then.

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