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4'33". Is it music?

post #1 of 69
1/30/10 at 11:11pm
Thread Starter 
I recently heard the john cage "composition" on a mode records dvd. It was recorded at New Yorks' Ground Zero. Once I saw that I understood.
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post #2 of 69
1/30/10 at 11:15pm

No, not for me...

I've seen this piece performed about seven times...in my humble opinion it was more of a statement than a piece of music. Of course, these arguments generally go in circles...i.e. is a one measure rest in the midst of a composition "music" or the absence of music. For me, the one measure rest is a very different animal than 4'33".

By the way, I very much enjoyed all the performances I've "heard" of this piece. All the artists were very dedicated to the work.

Cheers!
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post #3 of 69
1/31/10 at 5:35am
Not sure if it was Cage himself or a commentator who said that the music was in the ambience of the venue when the piece is performed, ie listening to the sounds around you.
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post #4 of 69
1/31/10 at 6:06am
I'll call it art but I wouldn't call it music. I see music as a direct expression of the musician's emotions into sound as a medium. Hence why I don't see sitting in silence while the audience creates the soundscape counts as music.
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post #5 of 69
1/31/10 at 6:47am
Yes and no.

It's music in the sense that the rests in classical are part of the music.

However I guess in this case its more accurate to call it a comment on music (and in particular the way we listen). This is its intended purpose, anyway.

I'm sick of seeing it brought up by "cool guys" on forums though.
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post #6 of 69
1/31/10 at 11:56am
Thread Starter 
Great comments! Also I would like to point out how much the sounds of the natural world influenced Cage's other compositions. In order to annoy my ex-girlfriend I put on "Music Of Changes". Her cat freaked out and started jumping all over the place. My guess is that the cat thought that the music was an extension of nature. Mabye it was an invisible animal or the foreshadowing of one. Is there a connection between random music and absence of any (contrived) music?
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post #7 of 69
1/31/10 at 12:22pm
Nope, it is not music and the fact that some people consider it to be music shows what's wrong with some (not all) of the contemporary classical music. If you could call ambient noise music what's there to stop me from calling Britney Spear's songs as masterpieces on the level of Beethoven's best works?
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post #8 of 69
1/31/10 at 12:22pm
I would classify it as performance art.
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post #9 of 69
1/31/10 at 1:53pm
Thread Starter 
Music is mostly a subjective experience. While I feel that there is some objectivity to the statement that Beethoven is better that Britiney, I also feel that there is objectivity to Cage's music. For years after the invention of the camera art critics refused to consider a picture of a landscape on the same par with a painting of a landscape. If I suddenly went deaf I think I would miss everyday sound as much as music.
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post #10 of 69
1/31/10 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waex View Post
Music is mostly a subjective experience. While I feel that there is some objectivity to the statement that Beethoven is better that Britiney, I also feel that there is objectivity to Cage's music. For years after the invention of the camera art critics refused to consider a picture of a landscape on the same par with a painting of a landscape. If I suddenly went deaf I think I would miss everyday sound as much as music.
If I suddenly went blind I think I would miss my sense of sight. Does that mean the crayon drawings I made as a little kid is a art masterpiece?
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post #11 of 69
1/31/10 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
I think that you would miss the drawings. Art masterpiece? That is up to the viewer. It is important to keep in mind that no one other than Cage had made the same statement. It's silly to think that some other composer would make 4'44". Therein lies the philosophy (Find something that has not yet been done and then do it) that is so key in the avant garde. You could call it the pioneer spirit; you could call it keeping up with the Joneses. I understand how easy it is to dismiss 4'33" as the emperors new clothes. But to do so one would miss out on the lesson. Every random noise is unique to the moment and to miss it is to miss life. If you get the same enjoyment from that as you would Mahler, then why isn't it music?
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post #12 of 69
1/31/10 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waex View Post
Every random noise is unique to the moment and to miss it is to miss life. If you get the same enjoyment from that as you would Mahler, then why isn't it music?
Because random noise is not "music", by any useful definition.
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post #13 of 69
2/1/10 at 12:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waex View Post
I think that you would miss the drawings. Art masterpiece? That is up to the viewer. It is important to keep in mind that no one other than Cage had made the same statement. It's silly to think that some other composer would make 4'44". Therein lies the philosophy (Find something that has not yet been done and then do it) that is so key in the avant garde. You could call it the pioneer spirit; you could call it keeping up with the Joneses. I understand how easy it is to dismiss 4'33" as the emperors new clothes. But to do so one would miss out on the lesson. Every random noise is unique to the moment and to miss it is to miss life. If you get the same enjoyment from that as you would Mahler, then why isn't it music?
Maybe because, duh, I don't get the same enjoyment from that as I would Mahler? Pretentious is pretentious, I don't have the hobby of making things more important than what it is. The whole "if it's unique and not done before, it's good!" idea is why I have never respected much of the contemporary classical music stuff.
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post #14 of 69
2/1/10 at 1:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by scytheavatar View Post
If you could call ambient noise music what's there to stop me from calling Britney Spear's songs as masterpieces on the level of Beethoven's best works?
Britney Spears, that's what.
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post #15 of 69
2/1/10 at 1:38am
Scythe, you can say that. No one is stopping you, but everyone would disagree with you.

Anyway, I would call the cage piece art but not music. I once performed it in a talent show with a few friends. I've rarely seen a group of people so confused.
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