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Is the HD800 overpriced? - Page 38

post #556 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

But that's not the point. The point is headphone companies aren't even ******* trying anymore. Think of it like this, headphones are basically small speakers strapped onto your head. Do you know how speakers are tuned? Their housings are painstakingly tuned and dampened to make the frequency response as perfect as they possibly can. This requires the use of extensive acoustic dampening and tweaking. Headphone companies don't do this anymore. They just slap their drivers into an enclosure and call it good. Which leads to a slew of problems, like the HD800's massive 10kHz peak. TheyTheFostex is the ONLY one left who's actually investing time into damping their headphones (TH600 and TH900) to make them as good as they can.

 

Here's a challenge for you: name one headphone in production today, from any other company, that actually has acoustic damping in the earcups. One. I guarantee you can't. 

If you're going to propose the Fostex over the HD800 for value and quality; we've got a serious problem. It's an amazingly nice looking product and fantastic closed headphone; but for that same reason, it's not quite as good as most competing open backs.

 

If I liked the TH900's that much, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. You don't even want to know what the mark-up on this headphone is, you'd be disgusted. It's the headphone we make the most profit with when we sell at our store.

post #557 of 684
Quote:

Originally Posted by takato14 View Post
 

 They just slap their drivers into an enclosure and call it good. Which leads to a slew of problems, like the HD800's massive 10kHz peak. Fostex is the ONLY one left who's actually investing time into damping their headphones (TH600 and TH900) to make them as good as they can.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dleblanc343 View Post

If you're going to propose the Fostex over the HD800 for value and quality; we've got a serious problem. It's an amazingly nice looking product and fantastic closed headphone; but for that same reason, it's not quite as good as most competing open backs.

 

If I liked the TH900's that much, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. You don't even want to know what the mark-up on this headphone is, you'd be disgusted. It's the headphone we make the most profit with when we sell at our store.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the point was the Fostex was paying attention enough to their headphones to dampen and tweak the sound. 

 

If you know how much the mark-up is on headphones, shouldn't you of all people understand how much profit sennheiser is sitting on for these?

post #558 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwappo99 View Post
Quote:

Originally Posted by takato14 View Post
 

 They just slap their drivers into an enclosure and call it good. Which leads to a slew of problems, like the HD800's massive 10kHz peak. Fostex is the ONLY one left who's actually investing time into damping their headphones (TH600 and TH900) to make them as good as they can.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dleblanc343 View Post

If you're going to propose the Fostex over the HD800 for value and quality; we've got a serious problem. It's an amazingly nice looking product and fantastic closed headphone; but for that same reason, it's not quite as good as most competing open backs.

 

If I liked the TH900's that much, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. You don't even want to know what the mark-up on this headphone is, you'd be disgusted. It's the headphone we make the most profit with when we sell at our store.

 

I'm pretty sure the point was the Fostex was paying attention enough to their headphones to dampen and tweak the sound. 

 

If you know how much the mark-up is on headphones, shouldn't you of all people understand how much profit sennheiser is sitting on for these?

Exactly.

 

People have differing opinions of headphones, just as it is with everything else in this world. You're fine to think that the HD800 is better, or that the fact that the TH900 is closed automatically makes it inferior, or whatever you please. My personal opinion is that NO open back can compare with a properly dampened closed back, especially not when it's HD800 vs TH900. That's my opinion, respect it and I'll respect yours.


Edited by takato14 - 7/7/13 at 11:28pm
post #559 of 684

Well compared to the past your probabily right, companies don't go through nearly as much testing, effort, and modifications before shipping out their products anymore. They proabily caught the error too late down the road or after few shipped out. (could've been prevented with more testing? maybe, but at opportunity cost of shipping the product out faster) But companies do not redesign or recall unless the product is unusuable because of it or unless they can make more profit. Hey, who knows maybe they didn't even want to admit there some something wrong with their initial design? it is also my bet that higher ups in sennheisers is more concerned about their quarterly profits than making a flagship without flaws. (although the opposite would be prefered) The better known your brand, the easier it is to get away with it Considering the fact that Ford choose not to recall the pinto even though they knew the car would explode when it got rear ended, sennheiser choosing not to change their product or recall their product despite knowing the error later is not suprising to me. Especially when it sells well and most of its buyers are satisfied

 

But i find this to be a very common trend for many electronics products in general, especially larger companies. This is a common problem for hardware (very big problem since you can't just recall or patch without significant cost) and especially in software (usually they send out software knowing there is problems and post patches later to make more money). (i digress) But i don't think a lot of companies these days would go through such meticulous testing to perfect their flagships. Especially since a lot of their brand names have already been established in the field. Isn't it a bit too much only to point at sennheiser in such a manner?

 

Also you said you know people that prefer HE-6 over HD 800, well that would include me as well. In fact personally, i prefer LCD 2, HE-6, and even HE-500 over HD 800. But this flaw you speak of doesn't seem like a deal breaker for many people. HD 800 is a deal break for me cause it doesn't sound very "fun" to my ears although very accurate. If your paying 1400 for a phone it should atleast be perfect but i guess most people do not share this sentiment of yours. By this i just mean it seems a lot of people still love their HD 800 regardless.

 

Also even though headphones are headphones some products just go up in price just because so many things besides the headphones have changed. (more specifically things that affected by the determinants of demand) Thanks to the internet and forums such as this, there are more audiophiles in general and people that are willing to spend money for headphones because they know about its existance. That in it of itself increases demand and allows the company to increase prices to a higher degree. There is also the fact that more people today have disposable income today than 30,40 years ago. (the average middle class can buy more stuff today than 30 years ago) which means that more people in the middle class zone will enter the luxury market compared to few decades ago. (you can measure the increase in purchase power by looking at real GDP growth since it is increases in purchase power after accounting for inflation) So just more people in the higher end market = higher prices. I'm sure thats changed over the 40 years.


Edited by meyner - 7/8/13 at 1:52am
post #560 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Exactly.

 

People have differing opinions of headphones, just as it is with everything else in this world. You're fine to think that the HD800 is better, or that the fact that the TH900 is closed automatically makes it inferior, or whatever you please. My personal opinion is that NO open back can compare with a properly dampened closed back, especially not when it's HD800 vs TH900. That's my opinion, respect it and I'll respect yours.

I think you're forgetting that a closed headphone by nature is limited by its chamber reverberations which limits the amount of air and space in sound you can achieve (building a coherent sound is much more difficult when having to calculate chamber resonance, but the TH900 does it very well indeed). It's simple physics really. You'll be getting more harmonics, and less transparency in a closed chamber whether you like it or not when compared to open back headphones. Notice how the best closed headphones have very large cups (Sony R10 goes even further with its wide duck beak chamber to cancel out harmonics).

 

Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it. However, from a manufacturing standpoint and given a fixed budget to make a headphone; going with a well thought out open design will yield better results than making it closed.

 

This is very OT, but I feel these things need to be addressed. Headphones just like any other hobby in life is based on the user's preferences. Some will hate something another will praise, and vice-versa. Some people have slight biases with what they own, thinking theirs is the best when clearly there is better out there. At the end of the day, it's all about individual preferences.

 

To call the HD800's overpriced is fair, as all headphones above 500$ are. To call the HD800's outright bad is simply foolish. I don't know why you feel you have to bash the product, and be so vocal about it, but this behavior doesn't belong on head-fi in my opinion.

 

I hate when threads degenerate like this, and I'm hoping it gets locked. There is no constructive posts anymore and the point of the thread is kind of useless if you give it a serious thought.

post #561 of 684
Nope, it is difficult to find a synergistic average to low price amp to drive the hd800, this is why I specifically mentioned the M-stage as being one of those. Not paying attention to all the parts in you chain upstream will hold them back significantly. Just because your Pandora amp has enough power to drive them doesnt mean it will have good control of their driver. You haven't listened to them on enough different electronics to see how different they can sound and you perception of their "crippling flaws" is based on that lack of experience (see my post 2 pages back). There's a reason why I and many others who own or have owned the TH900 as well rate the HD800 so highly.
post #562 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post


But that's not the point. The point is headphone companies aren't even ******* trying anymore. Think of it like this, headphones are basically small speakers strapped onto your head. Do you know how speakers are tuned? Their housings are painstakingly tuned and dampened to make the frequency response as perfect as they possibly can. This requires the use of extensive acoustic dampening and tweaking. Headphone companies don't do this anymore.

 

Here's a challenge for you: name one headphone in production today, from any other company, that actually has acoustic damping in the earcups. One. I guarantee you can't. 

Umm, how about Mr. Speakers??? He takes the very poorly designed housing of the T50RP and tunees it with dampening and other trade-secret methods. Please do research before making such broad generalizations. As well as Grado, who tune their RS1s to their sound, albiet many don't like the sound of a Grado, the Grado family has tuned their drivers and housings to a specific tone that only Grados can reproduce. I'm sure there are others.

post #563 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorseNamedJeff View Post
 

Umm, how about Mr. Speakers??? He takes the very poorly designed housing of the T50RP and tunees it with dampening and other trade-secret methods. Please do research before making such broad generalizations. As well as Grado, who tune their RS1s to their sound, albiet many don't like the sound of a Grado, the Grado family has tuned their drivers and housings to a specific tone that only Grados can reproduce. I'm sure there are others.

Mr. Speakers is not a headphone company. He's a modder.

 

There is no damping in Grados, the only thing that COULD qualify as damping are the buttons on the older and lower end Grados, which function as a treble reflex dot. Which is still a halfassed excuse for damping if you ask me.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dleblanc343 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Exactly.

 

People have differing opinions of headphones, just as it is with everything else in this world. You're fine to think that the HD800 is better, or that the fact that the TH900 is closed automatically makes it inferior, or whatever you please. My personal opinion is that NO open back can compare with a properly dampened closed back, especially not when it's HD800 vs TH900. That's my opinion, respect it and I'll respect yours.

I think you're forgetting that a closed headphone by nature is limited by its chamber reverberations which limits the amount of air and space in sound you can achieve (building a coherent sound is much more difficult when having to calculate chamber resonance, but the TH900 does it very well indeed). It's simple physics really. You'll be getting more harmonics, and less transparency in a closed chamber whether you like it or not when compared to open back headphones. Notice how the best closed headphones have very large cups (Sony R10 goes even further with its wide duck beak chamber to cancel out harmonics).

 

Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it. However, from a manufacturing standpoint and given a fixed budget to make a headphone; going with a well thought out open design will yield better results than making it closed.

 

This is very OT, but I feel these things need to be addressed. Headphones just like any other hobby in life is based on the user's preferences. Some will hate something another will praise, and vice-versa. Some people have slight biases with what they own, thinking theirs is the best when clearly there is better out there. At the end of the day, it's all about individual preferences.

 

To call the HD800's overpriced is fair, as all headphones above 500$ are. To call the HD800's outright bad is simply foolish. I don't know why you feel you have to bash the product, and be so vocal about it, but this behavior doesn't belong on head-fi in my opinion.

 

I hate when threads degenerate like this, and I'm hoping it gets locked. There is no constructive posts anymore and the point of the thread is kind of useless if you give it a serious thought.

Chamber reverberations can be completely silenced with a large enough reverberation chamber. Obviously much larger than any headphone can manage but still. The only inherent flaw with closed backs is the soundstage bottleneck as you said, but soundstage can be a very bad thing when there's too much of it. It makes things sound distant and blurry after a certain point. The HD800 suffers from this even, it has diffuse imaging because the soundstage is too large. I also don't see how anyone could be displeased with the TH900's soundstage capabilities, but that's the realm of opinion.

 

But the HD800's design isn't well thought out. If it was the 10kHz peak wouldn't exist. Acoustic damping is important for both closed AND open designs. Note how the extremely simple Anaxilus mod completely eliminates that wretched peak. The fact that the TH900 is closed is mere circumstance. Open designs need damping too, it's just not always the same process.

 

The HD800 is bad at making music. I heard a really good pairing of the HD800 with a lot of the music that I love and it absolutely dismantled them. It FORCED its character onto the music and made the experience completely about the detail and nothing else. It has to be one of the most unmusical headphones I've ever heard. That's why I say the HD800 is bad. I recognize that it's probably the most detailed dynamic and has the largest soundstage. Doesn't mean it's a good headphone.

 

"This behavior doesn't belong on Head-Fi"? So if I think something is bad, I should either keep quiet about it or lie and jump on the bandwagon with everyone else and start preaching it as the best thing ever? Would that be more suitable behavior for Head-Fi?

 

It's not useless. Someone asked if the HD800 was overpriced. I gave a stance and explained it. We got a little off-track on the Fostex stuff but that's it.

 

EDIT: Holy crap, I didn't see that argument about the HD800 being hard to drive. Perhaps things are getting a bit out of hand.


Edited by takato14 - 7/8/13 at 10:27am
post #564 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorseNamedJeff View Post
 

Umm, how about Mr. Speakers??? He takes the very poorly designed housing of the T50RP and tunees it with dampening and other trade-secret methods. Please do research before making such broad generalizations. As well as Grado, who tune their RS1s to their sound, albiet many don't like the sound of a Grado, the Grado family has tuned their drivers and housings to a specific tone that only Grados can reproduce. I'm sure there are others.

Mr. Speakers is not a headphone company. He's a modder.

 

There is no damping in Grados, the only thing that COULD qualify as damping are the buttons on the older and lower end Grados, which function as a treble reflex dot. Which is still a halfassed excuse for damping if you ask me.

 

 

Dampening isn't the only way to tune a sound signature. If you listen to a plastic SR80i and a modded one with the only difference being wooden cups, it's quite apparent. Grado uses the air chamber and the size of the cup to tweak the sound. Dampening doesn't alone determine the shape of a sound.

 

I think Mr. Speakers deserves more credit than he's been given, He produces VERY high quality products out of semi-cheap products, and offers better customer support than many large companies could dream of.

post #565 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorseNamedJeff View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorseNamedJeff View Post
 

Umm, how about Mr. Speakers??? He takes the very poorly designed housing of the T50RP and tunees it with dampening and other trade-secret methods. Please do research before making such broad generalizations. As well as Grado, who tune their RS1s to their sound, albiet many don't like the sound of a Grado, the Grado family has tuned their drivers and housings to a specific tone that only Grados can reproduce. I'm sure there are others.

Mr. Speakers is not a headphone company. He's a modder.

 

There is no damping in Grados, the only thing that COULD qualify as damping are the buttons on the older and lower end Grados, which function as a treble reflex dot. Which is still a halfassed excuse for damping if you ask me.

 

Dampening isn't the only way to tune a sound signature. If you listen to a plastic SR80i and a modded one with the only difference being wooden cups, it's quite apparent. Grado uses the air chamber and the size of the cup to tweak the sound. Dampening doesn't alone determine the shape of a sound.

 

I think Mr. Speakers deserves more credit than he's been given, He produces VERY high quality products out of semi-cheap products, and offers better customer support than many large companies could dream of.

I know this... and Grados have a lot of resonances and reflections and other problems. There is still a lot of room for improvement. Additionally, Grado tunes headphones using their ears, not objective measurements, which is a completely different can of worms when it comes to flawed practices.

 

Ugh. This is not the place for another T50RP argument. I'm just going to ignore that part.

 

Back to the topic of "HD800 sux 4 musiks". Or, rather, "HD800 is hideously overpriced".


Edited by takato14 - 7/8/13 at 10:47am
post #566 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

I know this... and Grados have a lot of resonances and reflections and other problems. There is still a lot of room for improvement. Additionally, Grado tunes headphones using their ears, not objective measurements, which is a completely different can of worms when it comes to flawed practices.

 

Ugh. This is not the place for another T50RP argument. I'm just going to ignore that part.

 

Back to the topic of "HD800 sux 4 musiks".

I think that at this point it should be clear to everyone that any sensible debate is impossible.

 

 

 

 

G44

post #567 of 684

Having the HD800 next on my to-buy list, you guys are scaring me and making me laugh so hard at the same time. 

I will have to use my son's reasoning to justify this purchase ... "Daddy, I want beats headphones cuz they look cool" biggrin.gif

Damn, who says that you can't learn from your kids?  I do everyday.

post #568 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by koiloco View Post

Having the HD800 next on my to-buy list, you guys are scaring me and making me laugh so hard at the same time. 

I will have to use my son's reasoning to justify this purchase ... "Daddy, I want beats headphones cuz they look cool" biggrin.gif

Damn, who says that you can't learn from your kids?  I do everyday.

 

 

You could just spend your kid's savings and buy the HD800 AND HE-6!  beerchug.gif

post #569 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorseNamedJeff View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

I know this... and Grados have a lot of resonances and reflections and other problems. There is still a lot of room for improvement. Additionally, Grado tunes headphones using their ears, not objective measurements, which is a completely different can of worms when it comes to flawed practices.

 

Ugh. This is not the place for another T50RP argument. I'm just going to ignore that part.

 

Back to the topic of "HD800 sux 4 musiks".

I think that at this point it should be clear to everyone that any sensible debate is impossible.

Oh come on. You know that was a joke. Why can't I have a little fun? We don't have to be ALL serious ALL the time. 

post #570 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorseNamedJeff View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

I know this... and Grados have a lot of resonances and reflections and other problems. There is still a lot of room for improvement. Additionally, Grado tunes headphones using their ears, not objective measurements, which is a completely different can of worms when it comes to flawed practices.

 

Ugh. This is not the place for another T50RP argument. I'm just going to ignore that part.

 

Back to the topic of "HD800 sux 4 musiks".

I think that at this point it should be clear to everyone that any sensible debate is impossible.

Oh come on. You know that was a joke. Why can't I have a little fun? We don't have to be ALL serious ALL the time. 


This is HeadFi. A very serious place.


Edited by AHorseNamedJeff - 7/8/13 at 1:15pm
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