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Is the HD800 overpriced? - Page 8

post #106 of 684

???

Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle View Post
Here I go again?? Actually you agreed with me, you didn't present an opposite opinion; however, I can see that you're going to follow me around and attempt to continue to argue with me after I already dropped things in the T1 thread. If you read the quote of mine you referenced you will clearly see that it states "Some of those that have reviewed the T1 have stated that they prefer its sound signature". You and Skylab were clearly two of those I was alluding to with that statement, so I already said you preferred the T1. Really not sure at all where you are getting this opinion is the opposite of what I posted business? Perhaps it's just a desire to bicker?

Also, build quality wise the T1s are by no means sturdier. They come with the same cheap style quality headband as their lower end. Nothing special really. Warranty means absolutely nothing when it comes to products like this. I've never once had to take advantage of a warranty on any product I've owned. True manufacturer defects are rarely present and a warranty, whether it's 5 years or not, will never cover user error and damage. If one knows how to properly handle their material items a warranty is pretty moot.

It's cute that you want to claim that the detail retrieval is equal between BOTH of them. It's common for one to want to make exaggerated claims in order to justify their expensive purchases, to prevent buyers remorse and all that. Forgive me but I'll continue to put more faith in the impressions from Gu Sensei, neptius, and Skylab when they clearly state otherwise.
Obviously you've never held the T1s! The headband is NOT plastic. It is metal. I'm holding it right now! So here you are trolling again commenting on cans you've never physically seen. I do plan on picking up the HD800s down the road as well as I've stated several times that they are great cans...no buyer's remorse here. I listen to a lot of rock and find the T1s better suited. I was intending the HD800s for classical. When it comes to my $$$, I put faith in my ears. I wish more would do the same with their $$$ and ears.

With regards to warranty, obviously if Sennheiser felt the same confidence in their product, then I say stand behind it and give a 5 year warranty. Most defects fail early...called infant mortality failures. However as time goes on they do plateau, but after a number of years they do creep back up. This is called the "U" defect rate chart.

Please note that this is my last response to you...I will be blocking out your comments in future as they really offer very little.
post #107 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
Obviously you've never held the T1s! The headband is NOT plastic. It is metal.
I know. I used to own a DT770/80. That's why I made that statement. I speak from experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
Please note that this is my last response to you...I will be blocking out your comments in future as they really offer very little.
Excellent. This mirrors my thoughts on your content as well. I will do the same.

Cheers.
post #108 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle View Post
Also, build quality wise the T1s are by no means sturdier. They come with the same cheap style quality headband as their lower end. Nothing special really. Warranty means absolutely nothing when it comes to products like this. I've never once had to take advantage of a warranty on any product I've owned. True manufacturer defects are rarely present and a warranty, whether it's 5 years or not, will never cover user error and damage. If one knows how to properly handle their material items a warranty is pretty moot.
I used to feel similarly about warranties, but I've had a couple of issue recently that were sorted out, in part, due to warranty repair. Most recently, I had a problem with an AT ESW9 that was under warranty, but for which I did not have documentation. AT fixed them free of charge. I think that was also a case of a design defect, so that could have been the reason. Regardless, at the high end of this hobby, I am beginning to appreciate it more when a manufacturer really stands by its products. For example, Bryston has a 20-year warranty on its analog products and 5-year on digital. That adds value to me. But perhaps I am also a sucker for warranty marketing.
post #109 of 684
Just curious, how many people have actually heard od a failure of a HD-800? They've been out for a good six months and there are (I think) a few thousand pairs in circulation.

So, how many times has the plastic structurally failed? Has anyone had an issue with a driver yet?

I haven't heard of any failures. There was a click in the headband, but that was addressed and units replaced. New units don't seem to have it.

Shall we keep banging the "quality" drum when they seem to be holding up just fine? The click was fixed and then QC has been great. Am I wrong?

Also, it'd be easy to savage any other pair for quality of construction and price.

Why does the HD-800 always generate the most heat and light? Aside from the HF-2, of course. After the high-pitched wail over the F1 typo, I'm surprised the country didn't go to Threat Level Red.
post #110 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle View Post
I know. I used to own a DT770/80. That's why I made that statement. I speak from experience.

Cheers.
I have owned DT880s and you are correct the headband is plastic and they were the most comfortable cans I've ever heard. But AGAIN, the T1s are not made the same, they may look to have a similar design, but to confirm the headbands are made of metal. Take it from a Chemical Engineer...I know the difference between a polymer and a metal even though it's been 15 years since I've graduated.

Now back to blocking out your future posts...Cheers

post #111 of 684

Too early...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
Just curious, how many people have actually heard od a failure of a HD-800? They've been out for a good six months and there are (I think) a few thousand pairs in circulation.

So, how many times has the plastic structurally failed? Has anyone had an issue with a driver yet?

I haven't heard of any failures. There was a click in the headband, but that was addressed and units replaced. New units don't seem to have it.

Shall we keep banging the "quality" drum when they seem to be holding up just fine? The click was fixed and then QC has been great. Am I wrong?

Also, it'd be easy to savage any other pair for quality of construction and price.

Why does the HD-800 always generate the most heat and light? Aside from the HF-2, of course. After the high-pitched wail over the F1 typo, I'm surprised the country didn't go to Threat Level Red.
Hi Uncle Erik:

I do often enjoy your posts, but on this one the failure mode for breaking headbands, drivers, etc...would fail typically with extended use and wear and tear. Small micro cracks (found in all materials) can grow as temperatures cycle, materials are constantly stressed (i.e. put on and taken off). And can fail over many thousand cycles.

Being a former Quality Manager in the electronics industry and building products from Sun Servers to aerospace assemblies, I have seen these failures return from the field (sometimes after catching fire) and although as a designer you try to account for everything you can't and need this extended field data to get a real impression of the products.

All I'm saying is that it is refreshing to see companies such as beyerdynamic and others step up and give their end customers peace of mind.
post #112 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
I have owned DT880s and you are correct the headband is plastic and they were the most comfortable cans I've ever heard. But AGAIN, the T1s are not made the same, they may look to have a similar design, but to confirm the headbands are made of metal. Take it from a Chemical Engineer...I know the difference between a polymer and a metal even though it's been 15 years since I've graduated.

Now back to blocking out your future posts...Cheers

I'm talking about what's under the leather itself. Thanks for playing though.
post #113 of 684

And under the HD800s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle View Post
I'm talking about what's under the leather itself. Thanks for playing though.
And the HD800s?

Sorry, I don't want to cut open the leather on my $1000+ headphones to confirm this, but again I have held both and found the T1s sturdier by a good margin. You have obviously held the Senns, but only looked at the T1s in pictures...so how can you dispute this again?

Not too mention, often times in design, polymers are preferred for better material characteristics and if engineered properly, repeated bending.
post #114 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
Being a former Quality Manager in the electronics industry and building products from Sun Servers to aerospace assemblies, I have seen these failures return from the field (sometimes after catching fire) and although as a designer you try to account for everything you can't and need this extended field data to get a real impression of the products.
Anyone that sticks their HD800 in a fireplace doesn't deserve to own a pair anyway. Outside the normal realm of use I'm sure the headphones could develop problems. If you step on them, they will break. But I have faith that Sennheiser researched the materials and made sure they could be removed from the owner's heads thousands or tens of thousands of times without failure.
post #115 of 684

You'd be surprised...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
Anyone that sticks their HD800 in a fireplace doesn't deserve to own a pair anyway. Outside the normal realm of use I'm sure the headphones could develop problems. If you step on them, they will break. But I have faith that Sennheiser researched the materials and made sure they could be removed from the owner's heads thousands or tens of thousands of times without failure.
Agreed. But you would be surprised on failures (design and manufacturing induced) that I've seen...the pressures of time to market can really take a toll on quality...Xbox360 anyone? The products that I worked on for a major, well respected OEM were also rushed to market knowing of potential latent failures and there literally where RMAs (return material authorizations) that caught fire due to design issues. Over the 3 years of the product's life cycle there were many ECO (Engineering Change Orders) that improved the product's reliability.

Remember, it's not about building 1 set of sturdy cans that are thoroughly tested, it's building thousands that don't fail and many times the design is bang on and the testing is done, but through the various manufacturing processes (especially when going from small controlled engineering builds to high volume manufacturing) many more failure modes can be introduced that are missed due to their latent failures and missed until field data from the customers is collected.

I've worked in manufacturing electronics for 15 years now (from a Manufacturing Engineer to Quality Manager and now Director of Engineering) and have seen a whole lot. And my basic rule of thumb is never buy first generation anything...even though I did break it with my T1s, but as I said the 5 year warranty does ease my fears.
post #116 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
And my basic rule of thumb is never buy first generation anything...even though I did break it with my T1s, but as I said the 5 year warranty does ease my fears.
But the HD800 is not a first generation headphone. It is the last generation. They aren't going to make HD800 Mk.1, HD800 Mk.2, etc. When a new model is released it will have a different name and look different.
post #117 of 684

Not really...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
But the HD800 is not a first generation headphone. It is the last generation. They aren't going to make HD800 Mk.1, HD800 Mk.2, etc. When a new model is released it will have a different name and look different.
That's not entirely true, the products often keep their same model number and are changed quite drastically. Look at the HD650s, initially they were noted for being veiled and dark and about 2 years ago the silver driver versions (still called the HD650) came out and really lifted the veil.

The Xbox360 internally is a vastly different product today than my first launch unit (now defunct with the RROD), it has better heat removal via extra heatsinks, the chipsets have been shrunk to reduce heat, HDMI is now an output, etc...

But as you noted the HD800s have been out for some time now and I would think that some of the field data has been fed back for further improvements (but this process should be continual through a product's entire life cycle...something maybe we've forgotten here in North America...maybe the German's have not forgotten...the Japanese certainly have not forgotten this).

The products we used to make for Sun all had the same model numbers, and performed the same functions, but were drastically different internally. The main reasons are typically costing down to improve profitability and field data returns to better improve reliability.
post #118 of 684
I suppose anything is possible, but they have hyped up their ring radiator and claim to have spent 7 years developing it. It seems unlikely to me that they will revise the driver and come out with a Mk.2 version of this phone since people are very happy with it. The only issues that it has are the spring issue and the lint shedding on the driver cover which have been addressed (I still need to send mine in).

I can understand wanting to change the HD650, because it really doesn't sound that great in my opinion (I'm not sure if the ones I've heard were earlier or newer models). I think the sound quality of the HD600 is superior to it, but the 650 obviously looks better.

I would love to see a permanent installation similar to the mod I've done to my HD800, but I just don't think that is likely to happen.
post #119 of 684

Long development cycle!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
I suppose anything is possible, but they have hyped up their ring radiator and claim to have spent 7 years developing it. It seems unlikely to me that they will revise the driver and come out with a Mk.2 version of this phone since people are very happy with it. The only issues that it has are the spring issue and the lint shedding on the driver cover which have been addressed (I still need to send mine in).

I can understand wanting to change the HD650, because it really doesn't sound that great in my opinion (I'm not sure if the ones I've heard were earlier or newer models). I think the sound quality of the HD600 is superior to it, but the 650 obviously looks better.
That is a long development cycle for sure, but the Xbox360 was about 5 years in development by one of the world's largest corporations and look what happened.

Please note that I am NOT saying that this is/could happen to Sennheiser as they have been in the headphone business a lot longer than MS has been in the hardware business! Just something to think about in general and the best way to relieve those fears is a really good warranty.

With regards to the HD650s, I found:

HD650 (old black driver model) < HD600 < HD650 (new silver version)

Cheers!
post #120 of 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by my.self View Post
arent all headphones overpriced in a way? i mean does it REALLY cost $1400 to make one pair of hd800? the prices are prolly a lot higher than what its worth because ppl will most likely still buy them. but thats just what i think and i could possibly be wrong.
They have to make money in some way, if they priced it on the cost to produce them, then... they would make no money and the suppliers would just be making money and also they are basically just giving headphones away. Sennheiser has to survive by making some profit.
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