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Audio-GD Reference 7 - the new flagship DAC - Page 164

post #2446 of 2524

192K support through SPDIF would enable the use of software upsampling with powerfull SRC engines (XXHend, iZotope, etc...) simulating different digital filters configuration while running the PCM1704 in NOS mode. This would be a terrific feature indeed, compatible with most modern SPDIF transport. Of course, 384K support through I2S might be even better, but then there are not that many I2S interfaces, and even less ready for use.

 

I currently upsample everything at 24/96 in software (Fidelia with iZotope) and choose 2X oversampling only in the DSP1. Sounds gorgeous to my ears. I found that higher oversampling rates going through the DSP1 do harden the sound. But it is so good to have the choice ! 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingwa View Post

 

But we have not plan develop the RE7.1 support 192K through SPDIF input. Because we consider the SPDIF interface DIR9001 is the most neutral chip we can applied.



 

post #2447 of 2524

what if you send it a file mastered at (not upsampled) 24/192 over COAX?  I'm guessing you simply can't go that high anyway because of the 9001 chip?  If so, does the signal get transcoded to 24/96?  And if so would a 24/96 file sound better than a 24/192 because the 192 file would have to be down converted?

 

 

post #2448 of 2524

Isn't I2S only recommended for very small distance (typically a circuit board)?

 

What about an USB version of the Ref 7.1 which would support asynch USB and 32/384 like some manufacturer do already (Antelope Gold, M2Tech Young). USB stream could then be directly converted to I2S. That would allow running the PCM1704 in NOS mode at 384khz rates while all digital "manipulation" (upsampling, digital filters, dithering) could be performed in software. Pure Music for example do already allow upsampling to 32/384. But more will probably follow. Such a DAC would be well prepared for the next digital revolution !!


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingwa View Post

 

If had an I2S output device, simply modify the RE7.1 had the I2S input socket, then can playback with 192KHz .

 



 

post #2449 of 2524


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathead View Post

I would like to know of a way I can make the Ref7 accept a external word clock.

 

That would surely be nice.

 

post #2450 of 2524

Hi all.

 

So the 24'th of january I did recieve my Ref 7.1

 

During last year(2011) I have been buying a small pile of Audio-gd-stuff. It started with the NFB-11 and -12 when I first laid eye
on Audio-gd and Kingwa's designs. At that time I was searching for the ESS-Sabre32-chip (ES9018). The first buy was more or less a test of how trustful and how accurate the company was to deal with.


When I recieved the small boxes and started to listen to them I found both really good for their very reasonable prices. Worth mentioning is that they are still doing service for me at work and at home. No problems what so ever. Based on that experience among the fact that Kingwa and his coworkers are doing their best to deliver competent soundequipment and this with a warranty. I decided to rise my ambition to the next level by buying the NFB-10ES(ESS-chip and USB-version and stock XO).

This is a very good headphone amp used both single end and balanced, and You can say a nice mid-class DAC for the comparison with the other stuff.I liked the sound in my headphones (Senn.HD650 Balanced)that much that I ordered the NFB-7 (ESS- original w. TCXO)

As many of You already know DAC-chips performance in general are very much dependent of the supporting PSU.

 

The NFB-7 is really a winner. I will keep this one forever. I love it. I added a Master-1 pre and in the end of last summer I got my Master-2 poweramps. I have been running the gear almost constantly an almost redicilous long time of burning in. I am right now using a TEAC VRDS 10 with JZ-1 and a Squeezebox Duet(modded) as transports via the Digital Interface.

 

The sound is crisp clear, very defined, powerful with accuracy... For me, fantastic.

So why did I buy the Reference 7.1 when I was that happy with the NFB-7 in the contex? Well, to be honest, I couldn't resist... but there is more to it.


Very much of the played (digital) material today are "destroyed" in early stages in the recording process. The NFB-7 is revealing this in a rather brutal way..

If You use the possible and useful recording undestorted gap and allow the transient peaks from the music be the limitation and You don't "loudness it" the dynamic will give a greater experience listening.


Unfortunately the music recording business isn't helping much in this situation. The fact that smaller artists are producing themselves may maybe after some time better it. I don't know but let's hope for that.

We can right now see a reborn Vinyl-era and this partly because of this. I think the Vinyl has its charm, but the digitalworld could and should do better 2012.


As You all know there are recordings on CD 16/44.1 that sounds very good but they are not that many. If You use 24/96 in a good recording way it could compare near to analogue (Vinyl).
And Yes some 24/96 recordings are super but not all.


All the talking about gear accepting higher numbers here are interesting, but I am not sure it will hit the target. I think the cooperation between Neil Young and Steve Jobs could have helped. Let's hope somebody else with alot of money can step up and take over for Steve Jobs.

 

Back to the Ref 7.1

I have been reading reviews and about other peoples experiencies about the Ref 7.1 so when Kingwa put up a few some month before christmas 2011, I ordered one.
I have the Ref 7.1 stacked on the NFB-7 and they are simultaniously feeded with the same material through the DI (Coax-out)

The Ref 7.1 is connected via ACSS (ch5) and XLR(ch3) and the NFB-7 is on XLR(ch1) on the Master-1 pre. The Master-2 poweramps are connected with ACSS stock-cables.

Speakers used right now is Swedish made, electrodynamic w bassreflex with 2-way x-overfilter from Kingwa. Later a setup of Quad ESL-63 w Gradient SW-63 will serve.

It is easy to toggle through the channels (1-3-5) to compare between DAC's interfaces. Their individual levels are more or less exact. The difference between ch5(Ref 7.1 ACSS) and ch3(Ref 7.1 XLR) varies from day to day
Not much but it is noticeable


What was very noticeable when I first powered up the Ref 7.1 was that it is "smooth" and "wide" and this right out of the box. My NFB-7 had around 700 to 1000 hours before it opened up to what it is today.
To be honest...today after approx 14 days, they sound very similar in that aspect and I am sure the Ref 7.1 will mature more with time. As You understand I haven't had so much time listening yet, I am using burn in discs and music when I have the moments I can. This far the Ref 7.1 is very easy to like and it is very easy to listen to...and this is also the main reason why I ordered it. It is soft, smooth, It has more body than the NFB-7. It is more forgiving.The bass have to wait for a while before I say much about it. That one varies most now and it have to "decide itself what to be" before I give my final verdict.

 

About Audio-gd

To round this up I must thank Kingwa and his coworkers for the gear. What struck me the first time I came across Audio-gd was Kingwa's beautiful designs of the circuit boards. And sure, there are plenty of possibilities for tweaks but the gear sounds fantastic as they ship if paired to well matched speakers and such. Since the first time I have had contact with Kingwa or somebody else at Audio-gd, I have never had any problems at all.. So if You are hesitating over a buy.. Just approach them and buy. Kingwa is a solid guy with high moral and ethics. You can trust them - It's no doubt about that. I do.


Thank You for reading.

 

/Jan


Edited by JaMo - 2/7/12 at 11:45pm
post #2451 of 2524

Thank you for posting your impressions of the Ref 7.1 Jan. Looking forward to hearing more of your comments on the Ref 7.1 once you have some time to seriously listen to it (after the burn-in phase). From what I've read, the Ref 7.1 is an excellent performer comparable to DACs many times its price.

post #2452 of 2524

 

Ref 7.1 is always the flagship of Audio-gd.

post #2453 of 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmychan View Post

 

Ref 7.1 is always the flagship of Audio-gd.

 

No its not. Its one of a number of flagships of different lines of DACS.

The Wolston line had its own flagship as does the Sabre32.

 

If the Ref 7.1 is the best,the absolute best bar none that Audio-gd make, then why would Kingwa recommend the NFB-7 over the Ref 7.1 to me when I asked his opinion given my priorities of speed,detail,clarity,dynamics and tight bass.

 

The Ref 7.1 is dearer because it costs more to make, 8 chips + DSP1, not because it is better.

Kingwa has stated that HE preferes the Ref 7.1 but that does not make it better.

post #2454 of 2524

Can't wait on a proper comparison of the NFB-7 vs the Ref 7.1.  Also can't wait til my NFB-7.1 comes next month.  I can't imagine how much better my current setup can possibly sound but I know that dac will raise the bar to a whole new level.  I'm actually itching to send them an email asking them on the progress of my NFB-7.1, but I don't want to bug Sai.

post #2455 of 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigeljames View Post

 

No its not. Its one of a number of flagships of different lines of DACS.

The Wolston line had its own flagship as does the Sabre32.

 

If the Ref 7.1 is the best,the absolute best bar none that Audio-gd make, then why would Kingwa recommend the NFB-7 over the Ref 7.1 to me when I asked his opinion given my priorities of speed,detail,clarity,dynamics and tight bass.

 

The Ref 7.1 is dearer because it costs more to make, 8 chips + DSP1, not because it is better.

Kingwa has stated that HE preferes the Ref 7.1 but that does not make it better.


Kingwa stated on his web site, that the Ref 7.1 is "The best DAC we ever made". This was before it was (temporarily) discontinued.

 

post #2456 of 2524

Hi guys

 

This is a nobody-wins discussion.

 

It is all about our personal preferences and what we will connect the gear to. You all know that .To provoke but it has some truth in in it. -All speakers are coloring the sound, so to get the prefered result I have to match them with the right equipment to balance it up to achieve "my result". The serious designer of sound-equipment have a clear goal when chosing components for a project.

This leaves of course alot of space to tweak the sound.

 

Clear is that Kingwa are designing good equipment "with different tonal flavors" (for different tastes) His own preference is PCM1704.

The designs are quite optimimal for each chip-type.

 

So select based on Your preferences and what You plan to connect it to... Speakers, cables, amps

 

The NFB-7 and the Ref 7.1 are both super.., The Wolfson NFB-8/9 I don't have experience on but I am sure it is super aswell in its tonalarea.

 

/Jan

 

 

post #2457 of 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post


Kingwa stated on his web site, that the Ref 7.1 is "The best DAC we ever made". This was before it was (temporarily) discontinued.

 



In HIS opinion because he preferers it but that does not mean its better. I might prefer a Ford Mustang to a Bugatti Veyron but it does not mean it is a better car.

He clearly stated to me, that given my priorities as previously mentioned, the NFB-7 was better. I would expect both the NFB-7 and the Ref 7 to be on the same level. If the Ref 7 was better he would not tell me that the NFB-7 was better.

 

Also he is not likely to say that his most expensive DAC is no better than his cheaper ones.

We can all work out what would happen to Ref 7 sales if he openly said that wink_face.gif

 

But I agree with JaMo that this is a pointless discussion because personal preferences will count for far more than the differences,probably very slight, between DAC's.


Edited by nigeljames - 2/8/12 at 4:03am
post #2458 of 2524

I have only had the Ref 7.1 for a couple of month now, but I am still amazed at how different it can sound when playing with the almost infinite combinations of digital filters (both DSP1 or software based).

 

It would be impossible for me to review this unit, because no matter the settings, it will sound (very) different in each configuration. This also means it is very easy to match one's personal preferences, whatever they are.

 

I haven't find or heard untill today a piece of gear that is so versatile, and I am so glad I finally decided to purchase one when this last batch surfaced.

 

 


Edited by shamu144 - 2/8/12 at 4:09am
post #2459 of 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

I have only had the Ref 7.1 for a couple of month now, but I am still amazed at how different it can sound when playing with the almost infinite combinations of digital filters (both DSP1 or software based).

 

It would be impossible for me to review this unit, because no matter the settings, it will sound (very) different in each configuration. This also means it is very easy to match one's personal preferences, whatever they are.

 

I haven't find or heard untill today a piece of gear that is so versatile, and I am so glad I finally decided to purchase one when this last batch surfaced.

 


I am all ears - or should I say letter-reading eyes?

Please report your findings regarding the different sound signatures of the settings (on the Ref 7.1) that you have tried!

 

post #2460 of 2524

Some observations...

 

While the DSP1 allows for different filter settings, they all belong to the same linear phase family, with different stopband attenuation settings. You might want to investigate other types of digital filters like minimum phase filters, which can only be done in software, prior to sending the datas to the Ref 7.1. I use Fidelia for this. The first filter is said to have the most impact on sound. I certainly agree.

 

I do upsample all material to 24/96 through Fidelia, using a specific filter setting (minimum phase apodising filter), because this setting sounds best to my ears. So my experience is likely to be very different from someone using a CD transport or relying only on the digital filters settings of the DSP1.

 

As such, I found the NOS setting to sound really really good (remember this applies only for a 24/96 apodised file and with my specific settings). Great sense of presence, flow and interaction of instruments. Soundstage is quite narrow though. 4 times oversampling in the DSP1 with a stopband attenuation of -50dB enhance the soundstage depth and width without any obvious downside (probably my favorite at this point). 2 times oversampling and -90dB brought relatively similar results (soundstage slightly narower than 4 times OS and -50dB) while 4 times oversampling and -90dB do harden the sound too much for my taste. 8 times oversampling and -130dB is almost unbearable for me. Technically very impressive, with largest soundstage by far, but all the life of instruments and voices is sucked out resulting in a dry and edgy sound.

 

As I said, it is relatively easy to tune the Ref 7.1 sound to one's preferences.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

I am all ears - or should I say letter-reading eyes?

Please report your findings regarding the different sound signatures of the settings (on the Ref 7.1) that you have tried!

 

 

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